What if jobs are not the solution but the problem? • Hacker News Board

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#141

Post by freshhawk » Fri, Nov 25, 2016, 11:34 PM UTC

No better addition to the subject than David Graeber's piece: On Bullshit Jobs (http://strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/ - click the "here" link on that idiotic splash page)

And an interesting evaluation from The Economist (http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2013/08/labour-m...)

The Economist does miss the point a bit by concentrating on a comparison between industrial jobs from a century ago and clerical jobs today. The author discards any notion that workers are intelligent enough to be affected by the true meaning and value to society their job creates, instead comparing physical pain from a industrial age factory job to the tedium of killing time on facebook at a cushy office job.

That's a cheap hack reframing in order to make a point in my opinion, either a sign of dishonesty or just being completely out of touch. Graeber is very clear that the meaninglessness of these tasks is important.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#142

Post by thesagan » Fri, Nov 25, 2016, 11:35 PM UTC

cperciva wrote: post #59

thesagan wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Begging the question; economics is not a physical science where you can run A/B tests on an economy and find results. It's a social study, mostly. As someone who studied it for years , institutionally and on my own, I can tell you that economists do not agree on any basic laws except that people have a long list of wants and that not all of them can be satisfied. Many economists are questioning their 101s lately. Loo…

"Trade and exploiting comparative advantages yields greater utility" is about as hard a law as any.

If the law stands in isolation. But there are more questions that arise. To whom? For how long? In which way? Etc. etc.

The side effects must be investigated because that's largely where we are in the public discourse right now. We're in a big adjustment period. We're learning about consequences; good and bad.

Reminds me of Keyne's famous long-run quote.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#143

Post by cnnsucks » Fri, Nov 25, 2016, 11:37 PM UTC

IanDrake wrote: post #64

Forget the word "job" and instead use the word "value" to understand just how silly this idea is. What he's saying is that no one needs to do anything of value anymore. You know, like the guy who built the house you live in, chopped down the trees it was built with, managed the project to build it, inspected the building to make sure it was put together correctly, etc... Hundreds of people had jobs to make the shelte…

They're trying to develop a rationale for the managed decline. They desperately want this to make sense because stopping everything is a necessary condition of addressing the anxieties they dwell on; primarily their worries about the environment.

Meanwhile, actual citizens have moved on; right or wrong they've empowered people that they think can make more "jerbs," so the ladder removal operation is on hold for the time being.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#144

Post by clarry » Fri, Nov 25, 2016, 11:37 PM UTC

euyyn wrote: post #15

jokoon wrote: post #5

There is a difference between a job you like, and a job you do because you believe "work sets you free" or because you believe work is a some sort of value or a necessary pain everybody has to take part in. I'm unemployed and I really don't think I have any duties to work in fast food or to deliver pizza because I must contribute. If I decide I can live poor and be happy with welfare, I will. I think it's a great thi…

You don't think you have any duty to try not to live off welfare, as long as not many people do it?

I can think of all the bullshit jobs people do and then come to the conclusion that it'd be better for me to do what I can to contribute to society through research, participation in free software projects, volunteering, etc.

Doing that I could be useful to thousands, maybe even millions of people. As opposed to, say, wasting the time of hundreds of people trying to sell them stupid magazines they don't need or want while leeching money off of the poor grandma who doesn't know how to say no.

Alternatively, I could spend the time to build something that somewhere down the line could become a useful product to share with the world, or a profitable business that could pay back all the tax money I used up (and more).

Doing a bullshit job 8 hours a day leaves me too exhausted to do anything particularly useful with the little free time I have.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#145

Post by beat » Fri, Nov 25, 2016, 11:37 PM UTC

pygy_ wrote: post #107

AmirS2 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> fulltime labor for everyone is simply not going to happen. We just don't need it. and from the article > there’s not enough work to go around I disagree. There's not enough paid employment to go around, but there is an enormous amount of work that needs to be done! Our entire society needs to be weaned off its carbon dependence if we want humans to survive the next century. This will involve at the very least the w…

The constant supply solar of energy (and finite supply of mineral energy sources) also means that we won't be able to grow the economy indefinitely and need to find a way to transition to a system that thrives at equilibrium.

I'll leave that problem to my great-great-grandchildren. For now, I'm more concerned with pulling off the fossil-to-solar transition without breaking down in the process.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#146

Post by andrewclunn » Fri, Nov 25, 2016, 11:37 PM UTC

Free money for everybody! Cool now to go buy some groceries... hey where's the food? Oh I guess the farmer realized they didn't have to work any more either... it's almost like money isn't some magical thing that automatically has value, but merely serves as a medium of exchanging value, something this author completely misses.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#147

Post by freshhawk » Fri, Nov 25, 2016, 11:38 PM UTC

chadcmulligan wrote: post #136

Maybe a better approach is how can we spend the surplus labour? There are lots of things I see need doing looking around my neighbourhood - public parks need cleaning up, old houses could be torn down and make some nice new ones, old roads could be fixed. Probably stacks of other things. Maybe some creative accounting will enable us to do these things? I know national parks near me have great paths that were built in…

Seems to me that everyone basically agrees about a subset of the beneficial ways that surplus could be spent. The problem is how society would need to be reorganized to make that happen. There is some concentrated power out there that is very opposed to this kind of change.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#148

Post by youdontknowtho » Fri, Nov 25, 2016, 11:38 PM UTC

VodkaHaze wrote: post #100

daptaq wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not if you ask marxist-economists...

Yes, and we should ask Lysenkoists about effective growing of crops. Marx contributed massively to sociology. He contributed nothing of note to economics that's really relevant to this day (not that his effort was not commendable). Sticking to orthodox marxist economics in 2016 is more dogma than science.

That wasn't the point. The point is that the "laws" of economics are the same rigorous laws of physics.

Markets aren't forces of nature. That's propaganda.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#149

Post by mdpm » Fri, Nov 25, 2016, 11:38 PM UTC

When men are rightly occupied, their amusement grows out of their work, as the colour-petals out of a fruitful flower;—when they are faithfully helpful and compassionate, all their emotions become steady, deep, perpetual, and vivifying to the soul as the natural pulse to the body. But now, having no true business, we pour our whole masculine energy into the false business of money-making; and having no true emotion, we must have false emotions dressed up for us to play with, not innocently, as children with dolls, but guiltily and darkly.

- John Ruskin

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#150

Post by lucideer » Fri, Nov 25, 2016, 11:39 PM UTC

Pyxl101 wrote: post #84

DougWebb wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say "isn't working" in the sense that the vast majority are struggling to achieve or retain financial security, while a tiny minority have concentrated most of the weath for themselves. Also, the trend continues to concentrate wealth further, making it ever more difficult for the majority. This is a recurring cycle, which has happened many times throughout history. Pretty much every time it ends with the elit…

Are you implying that people have had to struggle less to achieve or retain financial security in the past? During what time period and in what country? Can you share some specific data substantiating the claim? Average wealth has increased in America over the last 50 years, and real family income has been rising overall since the 1950s. Wealth concentration today is lower than it was in the 1930s. Poverty has fallen…

Technical progress has brought about any of the perceived benefits you mention; the economic system has only caused those benefits to be disproportionately applied. While the median quality of life has improved, the extremes continue to widen making that metric less and less relevant. The "average person" you talk about has become a tiny minority.

Your comparison of wealth concentration to the 1930s is also disingenuous: wealth concentration spiked massively toward the end of the 1920s, it was far lower than now before and after that. That particular point in history isn't a particularly ambitious bar to set.

Though if you're linking heritage.org while keeping a straight face, I fear this may fall on deaf ears...