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What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

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Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#111

Post by lostlogin »

ben_jones wrote: post #48
jjoonathan wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If 5 companies all invest R&D in developing smartphones that fulfill essentially the same purpose, is 4/5ths of the R&D money wasted? I'd say not -- competition decreases prices and increases quality. Even if it's "morally" redundant as compared to a world run by a benevolent supercomputer, it serves a concrete purpose with concrete benefits. Similarly, if a tractor can prevent Joe from working a miserable low-skill…

Agreed. Take something relatively recent, water resistance in modern smart phones, had Samsung R&D not gone down that rabbit hole it would not be nearly as ubiquitous.

Samsung R&D has not always been strictly inhouse if judgement against are anything to go by.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#112

Post by bunburying »

dvtv75 wrote: post #85
belovedeagle wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> whether or not we decide to distribute our plentiful resources You can already decide to do this today, and the government will even reward you for doing so. What you're really talking about is redistributing others' resources .

A non-zero number of businesses already do this. For example, where I presently work I don't get paid for overtime or public holidays in spite of the law requiring that I do. I complained, and I was told that if I don't like it I can quit. I said that I would be going to the regulatory body, and I was outright threatened with physical harm: "Bad things happen to people who do that."

In accepting this position, are you not allowing others to be harmed? I'm assuming you're not uniquely being abused by the powers that be.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#113

Post by [deleted] »

dvtv75 wrote: post #85
belovedeagle wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> whether or not we decide to distribute our plentiful resources You can already decide to do this today, and the government will even reward you for doing so. What you're really talking about is redistributing others' resources .

A non-zero number of businesses already do this. For example, where I presently work I don't get paid for overtime or public holidays in spite of the law requiring that I do. I complained, and I was told that if I don't like it I can quit. I said that I would be going to the regulatory body, and I was outright threatened with physical harm: "Bad things happen to people who do that."

[deleted]

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#114

Post by bjelkeman-again »

superuser2 wrote: post #95
jjoonathan wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If 5 companies all invest R&D in developing smartphones that fulfill essentially the same purpose, is 4/5ths of the R&D money wasted? I'd say not -- competition decreases prices and increases quality. Even if it's "morally" redundant as compared to a world run by a benevolent supercomputer, it serves a concrete purpose with concrete benefits. Similarly, if a tractor can prevent Joe from working a miserable low-skill…

In general, the effort is not wasted if competition drives the products to be better and/or cheaper in the end. Uselessly duplicated efforts due to secrecy are the problem patents were supposed to solve, btw.

I think open source software was much more effective in solving the problem of duplication, albeit a slightly different problem (not as effective with hardware). As an aside, does anyone building software these days not have quite a lot of FOSS in their tech stack? Imagine if we had to pay for Windows NT 2011 to run our containers. :)

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#115

Post by PrimalDual »

wildmusings wrote: post #6
jokoon wrote: post #5

There is a difference between a job you like, and a job you do because you believe "work sets you free" or because you believe work is a some sort of value or a necessary pain everybody has to take part in. I'm unemployed and I really don't think I have any duties to work in fast food or to deliver pizza because I must contribute. If I decide I can live poor and be happy with welfare, I will. I think it's a great thi…

> I'm unemployed and I really don't think I have any duties to work in fast food or to deliver pizza because I must contribute. If I decide I can live poor and be happy with welfare, I will. I think it's a great thing to be able to live a frugal life and still be healthy enough. Why do you think that you should have the right to live off of other people's work? Welfare checks aren't fairy money, they're money that ca…

So right now it comes from other people's paycheck but does it have to? Why don't rich countries like the US, Switzerland or Japan not print money to cover their spending?

Inflation is not the problem it used to be and I actually think it's a much better measure of the economy's capacity than unemployment. Would inflation of 4% be that bad for the public and financial system anyways?

In the US at least I strongly oppose tax-based welfare because I percieve it as a rigged system where the wealthy can avoid paying their fair share through loop holes and classifying their income differently than mine. But inflation in a sense is unavoidable and progressive since the more money you have the more you lose to inflation if you don't invest it. This is especially true if the cause of inflation is labor scarcity and not some other key resource like oil.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#116

Post by nico_h »

sqeaky wrote: post #35
lucideer wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally speaking, I agree with the overall content of your post. However your first and last sentences really emphasise for me the real problem: oversimplifying and stratifying the discussion. "Nonsense" is an extreme overstatement, there are nuances to both arguments. "This is economics 101" is exactly the problem: we're dealing with an economic system that isn't working. Questioning economics 101 is precisely wha…

How do you build a system that is stable where an individual is expected to leave some personal gain on the table? That runs entirely counter to human nature. If you can solve that you may have something workable, but without it "Nonsense" is as good a word as any.

a) is this worse than the current system?

b) Is it really human nature?

This is what social norms are for. Slavery is for now still mostly frowned upon, and in some circles even racism is. Even though using either usually results in huge personnal gains for some.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#117

Post by bjelkeman-again »

geggam wrote: post #110
lucideer wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally speaking, I agree with the overall content of your post. However your first and last sentences really emphasise for me the real problem: oversimplifying and stratifying the discussion. "Nonsense" is an extreme overstatement, there are nuances to both arguments. "This is economics 101" is exactly the problem: we're dealing with an economic system that isn't working. Questioning economics 101 is precisely wha…

Farmer who has an Ox / horse / mule and feeds the critter with grass / grain grown on his land does not need to buy a tractor. In fact you can plant seeds with a stick and skip the critters.

It is true, but you end up struggling to even feed your family. Ask any subsistence farmer.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#118

Post by wildmusings »

PrimalDual wrote: post #115
wildmusings wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm unemployed and I really don't think I have any duties to work in fast food or to deliver pizza because I must contribute. If I decide I can live poor and be happy with welfare, I will. I think it's a great thing to be able to live a frugal life and still be healthy enough. Why do you think that you should have the right to live off of other people's work? Welfare checks aren't fairy money, they're money that ca…

So right now it comes from other people's paycheck but does it have to? Why don't rich countries like the US, Switzerland or Japan not print money to cover their spending? Inflation is not the problem it used to be and I actually think it's a much better measure of the economy's capacity than unemployment. Would inflation of 4% be that bad for the public and financial system anyways? In the US at least I strongly opp…

>Why don't rich countries like the US, Switzerland or Japan not print money to cover their spending?

Printing money is equivalent to a tax on all US dollar holdings. The value of the printed money is subtracted from everyone else's holdings by inflation. Doing this excessively, e.g. to fund the entire public sector, would cause an inflationary spiral, as everyone tries to get rid of their rapidly-devaluing dollars as quickly as possible.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#119

Post by bjelkeman-again »

sqeaky wrote: post #35
lucideer wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally speaking, I agree with the overall content of your post. However your first and last sentences really emphasise for me the real problem: oversimplifying and stratifying the discussion. "Nonsense" is an extreme overstatement, there are nuances to both arguments. "This is economics 101" is exactly the problem: we're dealing with an economic system that isn't working. Questioning economics 101 is precisely wha…

How do you build a system that is stable where an individual is expected to leave some personal gain on the table? That runs entirely counter to human nature. If you can solve that you may have something workable, but without it "Nonsense" is as good a word as any.

Really? In Northern Europe I would argue we have this working decently well. To point where we have a health care system and educational system which is both less expensive than some and more productive/effective at the same time.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#120

Post by nhaehnle »

egh5oon wrote: post #97
nhaehnle wrote: post #13

The essay opens on a horrible false dichotomy. No, full employment alone won't solve the problems of inequality that the essay very capably outlines. But full employment may be necessary anyway , because having the sense of being needed and being useful may be an important factor to many people's well-being. Full employment is really just another way of saying that everyone can get this sense of being needed/useful v…

> having the sense of being needed and being useful Often, it can be the opposite. Many people would describe their daily tasks as useless or marginally useful for humanity, while finding meaning in unpaid volunteering.

Right. So why not draw the conclusion that we should provide a framework in which people can get paid for that volunteering instead?
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