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Deleting the golang subreddit

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Re: Deleting the golang subreddit

#311
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But, realistically, the power is there on any site featuring user contributions - Hacker News, Twitter, Slashdot, etc. etc. Humans are fallible; given infinite time, the same thing will happen on those sites too, and probably worse. If you push someone hard enough (I don't know the full story, but I believe the CEO was provoked) they will lash out and do something stupid unless they are incredibly serene or lack any…

When people get "pushed hard enough" the usual thing is deleting comments and banning users. That's a known and accepted moderation power. Sure it's abused sometimes, but at least it's not lying and wrongly attributing negative comments to people. Invisibly editing comments is a very unexpected route to take. I doubt you could push most CEOs to that. They would just delete the comment.

That's a known and accepted moderation power. Sure it's abused sometimes...

That you'd say this is an indication of how far the culture online has fallen. What's now taken as an accepted use of moderation power was once considered abusive.

Re: Deleting the golang subreddit

#312
I totally understand the reason, but deleting a subreddit just hurts the community more than it hurts reddit.

Working on an alternative to reddit and then dropping reddit once that one works may be a solution.

Re: Deleting the golang subreddit

#313
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the only thing holding you back from deleting a subreddit with tons of information, 25.000 subscribed users and what looks like a rather active and healthy discussion isn't that it would be a dick move to both golang in general and the community, but that you're not actually the owner. Could you get any more childish?

Not attaching your brand to poor service is also part of managing a community. If AWS started MITMing client HTTP connections and injecting code, would you be surprised people moved their official websites off the platform, even if a lot of people knew the old IP address? That's not childish, that's not doing business with bad partners, and Im not convinced a space that started as official could ever truly be made "n…

The reddit CEO played a prank.

Google actively helps China censor dissent.

Re: Deleting the golang subreddit

#314

I was the one who proposed deleting /r/golang. It is not some official Go or Google position. As much as I used to love Reddit and was addicted to it, my personal position is that Reddit is no longer a trustworthy platform (if it ever was). Editing user content is beyond offensive. I never even considered such a thing in my years of running LiveJournal. That is a major violation of user trust and trust in the platfor…

> Editing user content is beyond offensive

Get over yourself. In the grand scheme of things, a guy editing a handful of posts on a public forum is beyond trivial. There are about a billion things going on in the world which are worse.

Re: Deleting the golang subreddit

#315
post #269

I was the one who proposed deleting /r/golang. It is not some official Go or Google position. As much as I used to love Reddit and was addicted to it, my personal position is that Reddit is no longer a trustworthy platform (if it ever was). Editing user content is beyond offensive. I never even considered such a thing in my years of running LiveJournal. That is a major violation of user trust and trust in the platfor…

On Hacker News user submitted content gets silently edited by the admins all the time. (Specifically submission titles.)

Submission titles "belong" to the content, not the submitter, and that has always been the case.

Re: Deleting the golang subreddit

#316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is emblematic of what's wrong with so many subreddits and so much of the social web that comes in the form of "forums" -- it seems like we have entire generations of users who have associated the totalitarian nature of forums with things being "advanced" on the internet. Social media isn't mostly about free thought, free speech, and free inquiry anymore. Nowadays, it's mostly about the rapid dissemination of con…

This is self righteous, moralising nonsense. You are free to say whatever you want on the internet. Set up a blog or website and go nuts. You aren't free to dictate the behaviour of companies who don't want content on their site that is objectionable or factually baseless. Likewise it is just hypocritical and hilarious to complain about conformity just because your opinions don't correspond with theirs. Those people…

This is self righteous, moralising nonsense. You are free to say whatever you want on the internet. Set up a blog or website and go nuts.

I'm not so sure you're understanding where I'm coming from. I used to find online a place where I could freely express an opinion without fear of onerous consequences. Back in the old USENET days, there were trolls and heavy-handed moderation and all manner of unpleasantness, but there was also a widespread cultural respect for free speech.

Would you say that undoing net neutrality, then Comcast dropping all packets associated with anything expressing an anti-Comcast opinion is good and savory behavior? Would complaining about that be self righteous, moralizing nonsense?

The idea that people shouldn't engage in physical violence and intimidation could by the same logic be called self righteous, moralizing nonsense. ("FFS, just go and work out, take karate, or buy a gun or something!") Well, of course not. There is tremendous value in an open society where people can depend on the rule of law, driveable roads, electricity, plumbing, etc... Being civilized is literally valued at trillions of dollars in productivity. Likewise, there was tremendous value in open forums where people were free to express themselves and generally agreed to disagree. That's not what we have today. Basically, people bully other people by numbers and social pressure, or through moderation mechanisms. Your idea of "freedom" seems to be like a medieval form of "freedom" where any robber baron can set up a castle and start issuing his own laws and coinage. A truly open society is open globally, and people are free to roam and transact in a relatively relaxed fashion. Now, the morality of today's online world seems to be leaking into the real world, with that kind of deleting "moderation" applied to people's membership in civic organizations. Sorry, but that's petty and non-enlightened. It's like you don't believe the truth will set you free, and it's only pressure, numbers, and mechanisms that will win the day.

Re: Deleting the golang subreddit

#317
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More likely it's because the comment has nothing to do with editing users' content — unless it's meant to suggest that someone else faked Eric Schmidt's email (from the time 5+ years ago when he was CEO of Google) to incriminate him.

The comment has everything to do with editing content. Schmidt was effectively convicted on the content of his emails. I don't think Schmidt was able to edit an email used in that case. It is a positive example of what the poster I responded to was claiming. Additionally, this CEO (now of Alphabet) has continued to engage in seemingly illegal behavior over Google email. I'm not aware of Eric disputing any of these al…

  > Additionally, this CEO (now of Alphabet)
You seem to be mixing up Eric Schmidt and Larry Page. People have seen them in the same room together.

Re: Deleting the golang subreddit

#318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never worked at any company with more than 50 employees, and have worked on a team with as few as 5 engineers. Even without an explicit SRE role, someone is doing that work -- keeping the servers (reliably) on the internet and performing, mitigating attacks, etc. You should be able to tag the row with a dirty flag on second (or later) write using rules internal to the DB without incurring a large performance pen…

Either you are the outlier or I am - I'm honestly not sure. But having consulted with a dozen or so digital agencies over the past year not a single one had the sort of monitoring that you're suggesting. This doesn't mean that it's a bad idea, quite the opposite, but in my experience the reality of a small to medium sized agency is that if a client isn't paying for it than you're not working on it.

It's what I consider the difference between a software developer and a computer-systems engineer to be.

I'm likely the outlier, because my early mentors (college + first couple years of career) were mostly aerospace engineers or chemical processing equipment engineers, where safety is critical. Code can kill in both those fields. (They themselves had adapted a lot of systems and failure mode analysis from mech engineers in the same field.)

I don't think that the mitigations I pointed out require much technical work though -- most of them can be as simple as a single setting, extra program installed during build (and maybe a couple config settings), or a single cloud monitoring rule (eg, detecting launches). They do, however, require adhering to policy, discipline on the part of staff, and analyzing the full scope of your tech (and how it interacts). I guess my point is that these things often aren't done because of ignorance or haste rather than engineering cost (or legitimate need to be done faster).

It's just we have poor standards for what "engineering" is in tech, so we don't cross our 't's and dot our 'i's the way a mechanical engineer is expected to.

But that's no reason not to try and raise the bar.

Re: Deleting the golang subreddit

#319
Here's the thing. I read the whole pizzagate vs reddit thing and decided it was interesting in the "let me please think about it in a few years time" kind of way. There's rights and wrong and subtleties but fuck it. I've got more important things to worry about.

If I was a Go dev now I'd be furious because this bizarre incestuous little drama suddenly is affecting my actual working day (assuming the golang subreddit is a viable community).

I recently became active on the Django subreddit because it seemed more approachable than the main IRC or Google Group. If that suddenly got vanished because of subreddit drama I'd be fairly annoyed.

Can we just have a separate room for the children to play in?

Re: Deleting the golang subreddit

#320
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No UI for traceless edits and DB password split in three parts like nuclear launch codes. Then the CEO couldn't do it alone and he would have some time to think things through before others agree to participate in such fishy business, if they do at all.

The password one is good, but if three admins decided to conspire to change a comment, what then?

Then you have collusion, and this is what we want. This is a very typical control in regulated environments. It makes the action more difficult to execute, and it tends to carry an additional penalty as a separate offense.

This is bigger than trolling. We know people inspect the social network activities of others. This kind of abusive can result in all sorts of bad things. What if and admin didn't like you, edited your history, and then suddenly you lost your job for some fabrication of, e.g., a racist comment?

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