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Brew commands send data to Google Analytics

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Re: Brew commands send data to Google Analytics

#201

Post by Chris2048 »

hdra wrote: post #184
Chris2048 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are too many projects as there are, let them "burn out" and make way for those that aren't spyware. Giving away something for free gives no guarantee of quality, but doesn't justify stealing analytics.

How about try not to assume malice out of people's free software from the very first thing they did that you don't agree with? Its open source. Why not open an issue, contribute a patch to make the process opt-in, start a discussion, start a fork? Oh, of course, why would we do that when we can attack the maintainers, call their software a spyware, and threaten to sue instead? While we're at it, let's use words like…

> Why not open an issue

The maintainer already stated it's not a bug, plus the nature of the message implies opt-out was a design choice.

> of course, why would we do

Why start a fork before "attacking" the maintainer? Are you suggesting we need to audit every code base we use? As reasonable as checking every box of morning cereal for glass shards.

The software is spyware. Words like "spyware" and "stealing" are correct, I don't care how it paints the maintainer to describe the situation accurately, they created that situation.

> calling out this kind of behaviour is the least I could do

by "calling out this kind of behaviour" you attacking critics with poor arguments? That's not support, its fan-boyism.

Re: Brew commands send data to Google Analytics

#202

Post by smonff »

codedokode wrote: post #197
CJefferson wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this is, do you want every program you ever use, to start prompting you with a series of questions about various opt-in / opt-out questions? I get annoyed enough that gnu parallel keeps asking me about citing it, and that's one program. Bash would like to record analyitics. y/n/more information > y > ls *.c ls would like to record information about how you use it. y/n/more information. > y file1.c fi…

Opt-in can be implemented other way without questions. For example, user could set an environment variable or type a command.

Oh, no!

Re: Brew commands send data to Google Analytics

#203

Post by codedokode »

CJefferson wrote: post #194
codedokode wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is tracking user's actions the only way to improve software? That is not what one would expect from free and open source software project. If developers needs an information about how user uses a program, they should ask them to help.

this is going to sound insulting, but have you tried being an open-source developer? I've worked on products with tens of thousands of users, and the vast majority of those users never communicate. Worse (in my opinion), the users who communicate most tend to be experts, leading to programs tending to become better for expert users, and worse for beginners / occasional users -- see for example how many linux programs…

If you look at Google Play Store you will see a lot of comments from non-expert users (you can easily see it from their messages). Maybe that is because writing a comment in Play Store is easier than subscribing to a mailing list many projects still use or registering in a forum.

Also maybe they do not say anything because everything works ok for them?

Re: Brew commands send data to Google Analytics

#204

Post by hueving »

mhenr18 wrote: post #155
hueving wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're going to be subversive to your users by playing on their propensity to ignore prompts, why bother with allowing them to opt out at all?

Let's assume that 90% of people don't bother to turn off telemetry and 10% do. That also means that in your preferred scenario, 90% of people wouldn't bother to turn it on and the 10% also wouldn't turn it on either. If you can't be bothered to turn something off, why would you be bothered to turn it on? That means that you'll either get something close to 0% telemetry if it's default off, or 90% if it's default on.…

> If you can't be bothered to turn something off, why would you be bothered to turn it on?

If people aren't turning telemetry on, do you think they really want to send you data in the first place?

What you are doing is exploiting users assumptions of how normal CLI tools behave. They don't assume it's going to relay my information back to google when I use it.

Your entire argument essentially boils down to, "I'm sure I can get away with taking my users' information by making it the default behavior with a buried notification and I can placate people who care about privacy with an opt-out."

Your entire justification doesn't even mention privacy or caring about users, it only mentions dealing with pesky users who care to get your user-base higher and promote your product. You clearly have very loose ethics when it comes to privacy so I don't think there is much we will agree on. I just hope one day this behavior will be shunned enough that it will stop due to market forces before something like the EU regulates it away.

Re: Brew commands send data to Google Analytics

#205

Post by hueving »

andybak wrote: post #55
hueving wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By your definition, there would be no such thing as stealing IP, PII, launch codes or identities. However, those things are well accepted terms in all industries, including tech. You need to reconsider your strange restriction to mutual exclusion if you ever want to engage in meaningful conversations.

> stealing IP This is the usage I'm most firmly resisting. > PII, launch codes or identities All inaccurate to varying degrees - or at the very least metaphorical/rhetorical uses. If you're allowed to push a meaning in one direction then I'm allowed to point it out and attempt to bend it back a little.

>push a meaning in one direction then I'm allowed to point it out and attempt to bend it back a little.

I'm not pushing anything. Your argument is about whether or not copying information is 'stealing'. I'm just pointing out that it's a very commonly agreed upon vernacular all over many industries. Call your credit card company and tell them someone stole your credit card number and see if they understand what you are talking about and/or try to correct you by saying it was merely copied.

Go ahead and try to change the definition, but don't waste time on HN with that crap when the subject isn't even about whether or not it's "stealing" because it makes for boring conversation.

Re: Brew commands send data to Google Analytics

#206

Post by orf »

tremon wrote: post #200
orf wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well if you can't bear the thought of your friends and relatives not being able to stare at your dead corpse for a couple of hours and value that over doing something amazing and saving someone's life then more fool you. If your in the position to donate organs you most likely died in an accident. You likely won't have that rosy picture of your family and friends around your beside. You might not have anyone. What a…

Yes, fuck you too. Try a little empathy next time, and failing that, reading comprehension. I said the decision should be theirs. I did not say my body couldn't be parted from them, I said it was their decision to do so. I used to be registered as a donor, but because the law has now changed that my donorship overrides the wishes of my loved ones, I have withdrawn it.

> I said it was their decision to do so

And I said they may not be there to give that decision, so that's moot really. Organs like lungs and hearts expire very quickly. Reading comprehension indeed.

> Try a little empathy next time

For the dead person, or the person who misses out on a life saving organ due to the dead person?

It's your body and your choice obviously, but I think saying it's up to my relatives to decide isn't a great reason to be taken off the donor registry. There is plenty of time for them to grieve but only a few hours to take a vital organ. If you want to do something great if you expire unexpectedly then it's up to you, don't put that on your parter/relatives.

Re: Brew commands send data to Google Analytics

#207

Post by dbg31415 »

blub wrote: post #99
pvinis wrote: post #19

Yes we know. brew tells you that. And you can disable it. Data is being sent to Google everytime you do almost anything in almost all websites, using the same technology. So what? Some of the times it's to make the product better, or better targeted. Some other times it's just for spying on the users. Let's stop complaining about stuff that someone does and tell you they do it. There are many more that do the same th…

The US approach to privacy is "let the market sort it out". It has sorted it out by transforming the internet into a giant spying machine sucking up contacts, photos, documents, videos, metadata, what packages you use, when where and how you exercise, everything The EU approach to privacy (eroded by lobbying and lack of control over US companies) is that citizens have a right over their information. They can ask what…

> Companies don't need analytics to improve software.

I was with you except this line. Data is needed to make better choices and prioritize improvements. How would you like people to collect data? Google Analytics is free, easy, and powerful. Adding the cost of buioding a KPI tracking and reporting later from scratch... simply would be too much for most open source projects.

Re: Brew commands send data to Google Analytics

#208

Post by aq3cn »

tfeldmann wrote: post #2

To disable this, execute brew analytics off

How do you turn it off for brew cask?

Anyway this option should have been available in their man page. But anyway they have clearly mentioned it.

https://github.com/Homebrew/brew/blob/master/docs/Analytics....

If they want data, I will happily fill up their survey form but please don't take it for granted that my personal data is yours otherwise I may go to China for their great wall.

Re: Brew commands send data to Google Analytics

#209

Post by Isinlor »

blub wrote: post #163
wfunction wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The EU approach to privacy (eroded by lobyying and lack of control over US companies) is that citizens have a right over their information. They can ask what personal information a company has on them, ask that it be corrected or deleted. This has resulted in companies that are more careful with data. More like, this has resulted in things like nonsensical "Cookie warnings" that only waste the user's time.

That cookie warning is just a friendly reminder that you are being tracked everywhere. Of course, websites that don't track their users are exempt: http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm I guess the EU didn't expect websites to cling to tracking cookies like their lives depended on them.

Cookie law is one of the stupidest laws that EU forced. I had to install additional rules to adblocker to get rid of this nonsense and it still doesn't catch everything and keeps irritating me... I don't care, damn it! http://nocookielaw.com/

Re: Brew commands send data to Google Analytics

#210

Post by CJefferson »

codedokode wrote: post #197
CJefferson wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this is, do you want every program you ever use, to start prompting you with a series of questions about various opt-in / opt-out questions? I get annoyed enough that gnu parallel keeps asking me about citing it, and that's one program. Bash would like to record analyitics. y/n/more information > y > ls *.c ls would like to record information about how you use it. y/n/more information. > y file1.c fi…

Opt-in can be implemented other way without questions. For example, user could set an environment variable or type a command.

Then we hit the problem that if we don't push that request at users, probably a tiny fraction will turn it on.

Worse, that fraction will be the statistically unusual people who bother reading and finding such options, meaning we can't derive any statistically useful results about the user base from them!

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