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Why I don't like smartcards, HSMs, YubiKeys, etc.

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Re: Why I don't like smartcards, HSMs, YubiKeys, etc.

#21

Post by kawsper »

wzdd wrote: post #16

Odd -- JavaCard smartcards are available for under $5, have crypto co-processors, and certainly support general-purpose code. See for example my project for KeePass, http://code.lardcave.net/2016/08/06/1/ . After programming, you can choose to lock down the card (which means you can only erase the card, not modify it). I'm using NXP chips and although I haven't investigated completely I would be highly surprised if i…

I even have a ring that runs JavaCard software on its JVM, they are sold for cheap, and I bought one just for fun and history, there is an eBay listing here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JAVA-RING-RARE-Sun-Microsystems-JA...

Re: Why I don't like smartcards, HSMs, YubiKeys, etc.

#22

Post by subway »

georgyo wrote: post #11

He mentions yubikey in the title, but then nowhere else. The Yubikey Neo seems to be pretty close to his target device. The Yubikey 4 removed the ability to write new apps. The stuff about the NDA I do find alarming. In order to write "secure" programs for the chip on the Yubikey, you must have an NDA with the manufacturer. In fact the open source pgpcard app for the Yubikey is different than what ships with the Yubi…

Only the dev version of the Neo supported altering apps on the device. Later versions were locked -- causing Yubico to issue replacement devices when it was discovered their GPG applet contained a vulnerability a couple years ago.

Re: Why I don't like smartcards, HSMs, YubiKeys, etc.

#23

Post by brassic »

bogomipz wrote: post #20

The OP states: "Smartcards and HSMs are essentially two “brands” for the same thing: a chip which guards access to the data stored within it, and will only allow that data to be accessed in certain ways or under certain conditions. HSMs are the “enterprise” label for such devices, whereas smartcards are essentially the same thing, only cheaper." Yubikey(mentioned in the title) is a TOTP card that works with the HSM o…

An HSM consists of some secure memory to store a secret and a program, and a processor to run the program to perform computations using the secret.

A Yubikey consists of some secure memory to store a secret and a program, and a processor to run the program to perform computations using the secret.

The programs are different but they are basically the same thing. The author wonders why there isn't a simple general purpose gadget you can load your own program on to. As long as the action of loading a program clears existing secrets, the device could be secure.

Or to put it another way, consider a Raspberry Pi acting as a router and as a Raspberry Pi acting as a media streamer. They have completely different purposes, but they are the same thing.

Re: Why I don't like smartcards, HSMs, YubiKeys, etc.

#25

Post by Gruselbauer »

kawsper wrote: post #21
wzdd wrote: post #16

Odd -- JavaCard smartcards are available for under $5, have crypto co-processors, and certainly support general-purpose code. See for example my project for KeePass, http://code.lardcave.net/2016/08/06/1/ . After programming, you can choose to lock down the card (which means you can only erase the card, not modify it). I'm using NXP chips and although I haven't investigated completely I would be highly surprised if i…

I even have a ring that runs JavaCard software on its JVM, they are sold for cheap, and I bought one just for fun and history, there is an eBay listing here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JAVA-RING-RARE-Sun-Microsystems-JA...

That is the weirdest ebay listing I saw in a while. Also I want to have one super-badly now. Thank you :)

Re: Why I don't like smartcards, HSMs, YubiKeys, etc.

#26

Post by pjmlp »

kawsper wrote: post #21
wzdd wrote: post #16

Odd -- JavaCard smartcards are available for under $5, have crypto co-processors, and certainly support general-purpose code. See for example my project for KeePass, http://code.lardcave.net/2016/08/06/1/ . After programming, you can choose to lock down the card (which means you can only erase the card, not modify it). I'm using NXP chips and although I haven't investigated completely I would be highly surprised if i…

I even have a ring that runs JavaCard software on its JVM, they are sold for cheap, and I bought one just for fun and history, there is an eBay listing here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JAVA-RING-RARE-Sun-Microsystems-JA...

I remember the JavaONE when they were given. Oh getting old!

Re: Why I don't like smartcards, HSMs, YubiKeys, etc.

#27

Post by closeparen »

wzdd wrote: post #16

Odd -- JavaCard smartcards are available for under $5, have crypto co-processors, and certainly support general-purpose code. See for example my project for KeePass, http://code.lardcave.net/2016/08/06/1/ . After programming, you can choose to lock down the card (which means you can only erase the card, not modify it). I'm using NXP chips and although I haven't investigated completely I would be highly surprised if i…

I tried to do something like this last summer. I found little to zero intersection between the cards that GlobalPlatformPro can personalize, and the cards that you can just buy in low volume at reasonable cost.

I think I did buy one "$5" JavaCard but the shipping was like $50.

As much as I admire GlobalPlatformPro, staking your small company's security infrastructure on 1) a hobby project maintained by one guy (Martin Paljaik), and 2) materials with "call us" pricing that the suppliers really don't want to sell in sub-thousands volume seems worse than just using Yubikey.

Oh, also, I couldn't find an actual working open source PKCS#11 applet that wasn't abandonware. I did get something working with GPG (though it felt like duct tape and prayer), but I couldn't get the PKI stuff to work at all.

Re: Why I don't like smartcards, HSMs, YubiKeys, etc.

#28

Post by helloiamaperson »

Cyph0n wrote: post #7

The issue of affordable HSM/TPM for general purpose use is something my research group is trying to solve. We have most of the theory down, but the implementation is a work in progress. The key point is trying to maintain full physical isolation from the CPU and OS, while also providing general low-level computing capabilities. Do you guys think something like this could be patented and/or commercialized?

Since you're doing research in this area, have you taken a look at something like https://www.dyadicsec.com/ at all? I looked at the whitepaper a while ago, and it seemed to make sense, though I was way out of my depth.

Re: Why I don't like smartcards, HSMs, YubiKeys, etc.

#29

Post by closeparen »

georgyo wrote: post #11

He mentions yubikey in the title, but then nowhere else. The Yubikey Neo seems to be pretty close to his target device. The Yubikey 4 removed the ability to write new apps. The stuff about the NDA I do find alarming. In order to write "secure" programs for the chip on the Yubikey, you must have an NDA with the manufacturer. In fact the open source pgpcard app for the Yubikey is different than what ships with the Yubi…

When I dug into the smart card scene, it was clearly a world meant for enterprises that make deals on golf courses. The official specs, SDKs, etc. for the hardware is sold for many thousands under "call us" licensing and NDA from NXP. There's some working GPG applets but the open source PKI applets are all abandonware; you're meant to license one (Windows only, of course) from Gemalto, also a "call us" deal.

I've seen some references to anti-side-channel techniques that are trade secret or patented or both. I think you can only get them in a Windows-based "solution" deployed by consultants who are authorized resellers of these companies.

Yubikey has done an incredible thing in democratizing the technology as far as they have for smaller-scale, Linux and Mac-centric users. It's shitty, but don't blame Yubikey.

Re: Why I don't like smartcards, HSMs, YubiKeys, etc.

#30

Post by csomar »

Cyph0n wrote: post #7

The issue of affordable HSM/TPM for general purpose use is something my research group is trying to solve. We have most of the theory down, but the implementation is a work in progress. The key point is trying to maintain full physical isolation from the CPU and OS, while also providing general low-level computing capabilities. Do you guys think something like this could be patented and/or commercialized?

I think Intel has done something similar to what you are looking for: http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/architecture-and-tech...
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