Earlier quoted context omitted.
> the developer is seemingly unwilling to consider more appropriate technologies outside of their comfort zone The very same can be said about people looking down on Electron. Most of them can't write decent native apps to begin with. I used all of win32, Qt, GTK, wx and Cocoa to name but a few. They all suck in one way or another. Suggesting people are poor native developers for refusing to learn these frameworks co…
> For the average application going native will easily triple your development time and costs for absolutely no noticeable performance difference. Sublime text still smokes Atom and VSCode in the performance arena.
Electron considered harmful
121–130 of 256 posts
Re: Electron considered harmful
#122Another example of "'____ considered harmful' considered harmful".
Re: Electron considered harmful
#123This had me for the first half, where the author walks you through the 'case study' applications that offer minimal functionality despite shipping with an entire browser inside. But then the essay turns into a rant. It's 2016, people, the ship has sailed on pretending JS isn't a real programming language. Phrasing the argument the way he does just betrays his smug elitism. The fact is, for many types of applications,…
"Electron is a really good fit: for example, shipping a single-page webapp as a desktop app, a need that surfaces often in today's world, despite his derision of this concept." From a systems perspective that is emminently rant worthy, it indicates the system has completely failed the developer who cannot easily express what they can in a single page web app as a real application in the system.
Its no wonder all the best native applications ALL use proprietary toolkits. Adobe being a prime example. Such a toolkit is orders of magnitude easier to reproduce in HTML/CSS than it is in any of Qt/GTK/wx and others.
Thinking a web app can easily be expressed as a systems application grossly overlooks the complexity web apps have scaled to.
Re: Electron considered harmful
#124Earlier quoted context omitted.
> JS is a terrible programming language [Citation needed] Sorry, JavaScript may have gotten lucky being the lingua franca of the web, and it might not be perfect or even great, but it's "good enough" for most purposes these days. If it were "terrible" you would expect at least one compile-to-JS [1] to have gained a non-trivial amount of traction by now. The supersets of JavaScript like Babel, TypeScript, and Flow are…
"a variable is not required to have its type declared nor are types associated with properties" (ECMAScript 2016 spec, 4.2)
Re: Electron considered harmful
#125sigh First off, JS is a perfectly usable language. In some respects, it's even great: of the "big three" scripting languages (Python/Ruby/JS), it's the only one that got Lambdas right, and also got closures right (unlike, say, Python). It has sometimes-quirky syntax, and some odd semantics, but they don't bite as often as you'd think. Second off, I would say that this article is right about the bulk of Electron: It's…
Re: Electron considered harmful
#126Earlier quoted context omitted.
Now I'm curious. What would you say is wrong with python closures? Asking because they feel natural to me, and I haven't run into anything irritating about them. (As opposed to lambdas, which are really annoying and restricted in Python.)
It's not as bad as I thought, but Python doesn't actually have lexical scope, not really. But the LEGB rules mean that it should still work as you expect.
Re: Electron considered harmful
#127Earlier quoted context omitted.
> For the average application going native will easily triple your development time and costs for absolutely no noticeable performance difference. Sublime text still smokes Atom and VSCode in the performance arena.
And yet they're still popular, so it can't be that significant of an issue.
Re: Electron considered harmful
#128Earlier quoted context omitted.
> the developer is seemingly unwilling to consider more appropriate technologies outside of their comfort zone The very same can be said about people looking down on Electron. Most of them can't write decent native apps to begin with. I used all of win32, Qt, GTK, wx and Cocoa to name but a few. They all suck in one way or another. Suggesting people are poor native developers for refusing to learn these frameworks co…
> For the average application going native will easily triple your development time and costs for absolutely no noticeable performance difference. Sublime text still smokes Atom and VSCode in the performance arena.
Why isn't everyone using Spacemacs then?
Visual Studio is much, much slower than all of them yet its still an incredibly popular IDE for some reason. It has endless flaws, one of them being its still 32-bit and often crashes on larger projects. (The last game I ported to the PSVita would hang VS for minutes sometimes, often ending with out-of-memory errors, we'd reboot VS between every profiling session.)
For a good chunk of users, features and ease of use are more important than performance (especially when most of the time it really, really doesn't matter for an editor.)
Re: Electron considered harmful
#129This article, like many similar to it, makes the (imo flawed) assumption that a dev tool ought to be evaluated on only a few variables--e.g., code quality, performance, package size. If writing software is about making users' lives easier, happier, or better, though, I think we ought to optimize for that and that alone. I say let the market and communities of users decide which software they want to use. I use Nylas…
> If writing software is about making users' lives easier, happier, or better, though, I think we ought to optimize for that and that alone. That's (imo) your flawed assumption. And no, just choosing electron won't make your users happier. > Love it or not, JS is a point of entry for a hell of a lot more ppl than C++ is C++ is not the only alternative. And considering the staggering amount of frameworks and tools one…
Ah thanks, I lost some clarity in a post-write edit. My point wasn't that choosing electron would do that, it was that we should look more at end-user satisfaction and less at often pedantic technical analyses of solutions.
Re: C++: You may be right, but we can't deny that popularity and cool factor has a significant effect on hard metrics--eg, more frameworks, more libs, more components == faster dev speed & iterations, which I think is a good thing. ex: Mac hasn't been "better for graphics" in over a decade, but the 'cool factor' has made it the de facto choice for designers, which has resulted in a bulk of the latest designer tools being Mac only (a problem which, coincidentally, electron & its ilk aim to solve).
Last: no, it wasn't a joke. I know what the article said. My point was that the point of socioeconomic accessibility was mentioned, as you note, in the last line, but for the most part, the supporting data were more asserted as intrinsically bad. If it was a key argument of the author's, I think the data would've been tied coherently to the conclusion instead of requiring a diligent reader such as yourself to farm & cobble them together into a patchwork argument.
So, if you'll forgive me for borrowing a little of your snark: next time you google a word, for instance, 'skirt', you should probably prefer the first definition ("go around, past the edge of") instead of the fourth definition, as you've done here.
To be clear, my thesis is, in tl;dr form: "Anything that makes reaching users in the environments they prefer easier is probably good, but the extent to which this trades off with accessibility is unclear to me."
Re: Electron considered harmful
#130Earlier quoted context omitted.
> it does not look native and the devs don't care this is not valid. no need to limit our use case to devs, either. at worst, users don't care. at best, users prefer it. see Spotify, Discord, Skype, Sublime, Chrome, Steam... should i keep going? whenever i open an app that uses entirely native controls i just expect the author didn't want to invest any time into making their app look good.
Yeah I agree with you. This is very true in the Windows world, if an app uses entirely native widgets it looks very meh. However, on Linux and Mac it's a little different. On Mac you'll see many apps compromise their branded style to look more Mac-like in style. Meanwhile on Linux most people use apps entirely fitted for their desktop environment, and then it's branded apps that look out of place. Windows attempted t…
Yes an no. Windows is very versatile when it comes to design. However, if you just drag-n-drop elements in Visual Studio[1] or Qt, you get that "ugly" windows app. You'll notice plenty of Microsoft's own designs (as part of the OS, or as external apps) that look very well and fit in with the rest of the OS. There are also a few gems from 3rd parties.
> On Mac you'll see many apps compromise their branded style to look more Mac-like in style.
I agree with this, but I also believe it's an "optical illusion" in the sense that the GUI isn't very Mac itself, but it just borrows some design conventions used by the OS to make it easier for the user to understand the application.
> Meanwhile on Linux most people use apps entirely fitted for their desktop environment, and then it's branded apps that look out of place.
As a full-time (or at least 99%) Linux user, I tend to disagree with this. I know what you mean and you're sometimes right, but it's not really that black and white. a GTK app on Qt/Plasma won't look that nice unless you go out of your way to make it look nice (which is usually a lot of work), and open another GTK app and realise it looks broken, so you need to add more tweaks, and then you open the third app and give up. Same goes for KDE/Qt apps on Gnome.