Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why I don't like smartcards, HSMs, YubiKeys, etc.

devever.net

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 139 posts

Re: Why I don't like smartcards, HSMs, YubiKeys, etc.

#11

Post by georgyo »

He mentions yubikey in the title, but then nowhere else. The Yubikey Neo seems to be pretty close to his target device. The Yubikey 4 removed the ability to write new apps.

The stuff about the NDA I do find alarming. In order to write "secure" programs for the chip on the Yubikey, you must have an NDA with the manufacturer. In fact the open source pgpcard app for the Yubikey is different than what ships with the Yubikey because they can't open source the secure bits. Which is a bit upsetting. So uploading the open source version weakens your security.

That said, having my keys there still gives me much higher degree of security then an encrypted file on my computer. Malware may be able to get my pin, but not my keys.

Re: Why I don't like smartcards, HSMs, YubiKeys, etc.

#13

Post by detaro »

kevhito wrote: post #4

This is a somewhat older rant (at least 2015, I think). And the title is misleading. It is really "Why I wish there were a product similar to but different than smartcards, HSMs, YubiKeys, etc." Because there isn't much in there that argues why smartcards (or yubikeys, etc.) are not good at what they do. The author just wants a different thing, and doesn't understand why this fantasy product doesn't exist.

How is a title "Why I don't like X" misleading if the article explains what properties of all existing examples of X the author doesn't like?

Re: Why I don't like smartcards, HSMs, YubiKeys, etc.

#16

Post by wzdd »

Odd -- JavaCard smartcards are available for under $5, have crypto co-processors, and certainly support general-purpose code. See for example my project for KeePass, http://code.lardcave.net/2016/08/06/1/ . After programming, you can choose to lock down the card (which means you can only erase the card, not modify it). I'm using NXP chips and although I haven't investigated completely I would be highly surprised if it was not possible to get the tamper-resistant and cryptographic properties the author is after.

There is an open-source toolchain for generating code for the card which works great from OS X or Linux. Contactless writers are available on eBay for like twenty bucks. And they will even work (via NFC) with Android phones.

It's a great time to be playing with contactless general-purpose smartcards.

Re: Why I don't like smartcards, HSMs, YubiKeys, etc.

#17

Post by guelo »

Cyph0n wrote: post #7

The issue of affordable HSM/TPM for general purpose use is something my research group is trying to solve. We have most of the theory down, but the implementation is a work in progress. The key point is trying to maintain full physical isolation from the CPU and OS, while also providing general low-level computing capabilities. Do you guys think something like this could be patented and/or commercialized?

> patented

I hope not.

> commercialized

I hope so.

Re: Why I don't like smartcards, HSMs, YubiKeys, etc.

#18

Post by gravypod »

I'm quite a big fan of OPs work and I think that if they take some time with JavaScript they will change their "Let me be clear about this: JavaScript sucks. It’s not the worst, but it’s also not by any means good" opinion.

Check out JavaScript the Good Parts. It's a great language hidden under a layer of horrible horrible design choices.

Re: Why I don't like smartcards, HSMs, YubiKeys, etc.

#19

Post by konstmonst »

What is the problem to take a 10$ stm32f discovery board and use it as TPM. There are different flash protections:

1) you can read/write flash via JTAG

2) you can only write flash, but not read the old one

3) you can't rewrite flash, neigher can you read it.

You will still have to implement USB communication, but there is already a lib from STM for it. Some models also have generous flash (in MB ranges).

You can use internal SRAM which is more than enough and use AES acceleration peripherial. One can attach sdcard and use SPI + DMA + AES periherial to shuffle data along if one needs alot of storage.

Re: Why I don't like smartcards, HSMs, YubiKeys, etc.

#20

Post by bogomipz »

The OP states:

"Smartcards and HSMs are essentially two “brands” for the same thing: a chip which guards access to the data stored within it, and will only allow that data to be accessed in certain ways or under certain conditions. HSMs are the “enterprise” label for such devices, whereas smartcards are essentially the same thing, only cheaper."

Yubikey(mentioned in the title) is a TOTP card that works with the HSM on the far end though. They serve different purposes. You load the tokens into the HSM device.

They aren't the same thing. What am I missing?

Post reply on HN