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Let’s Admit Why There Are So Many “Job Hoppers” In Startupland

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Re: Let’s Admit Why There Are So Many “Job Hoppers” In Startupland

#31

Post by raganwald »

potatolicious wrote: post #23
smallblacksun wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"doesn't mean they're unreliable" Well, from the point of view of an employer, it kind of does. They never know when you will leave for a new job.

I disagree - if the hoppers are hopping because they are not getting the professional growth they need, or that they think they're being taken advantage of, then that's highly predictable for you as an employer. Are you treating your employees fairly? Do they feel like they're contributing, or are they writing dead-end code? You know when they will leave for a new job - when you start treating them like trash.

Here's a prediction: If a company's environment is shitty...

1. The best people will quit.

2. The median people will whine and make the office a miserable place.

3. The worst people will put their heads down, terrified that they will get fired or laid off.

Consequence? The best people still in their chairs will be the ones with the lowest morale.

Re: Let’s Admit Why There Are So Many “Job Hoppers” In Startupland

#32

Post by grellas »

cedsav wrote: post #22
grellas wrote: post #19

My thoughts based on years of representing such companies: 1. Non-funded startups typically don't have employees or, if they do, they are employee-founders. If the cash isn't there to support salaries, you won't have payroll. People can and do get misled in non-funded companies, though it is the rare exception and by no means the rule, since most of those involved understand they are taking a flyer and that nothing m…

minor, but I object to your "Non-funded startups typically don't have employees" statement. Or perhaps profitable startups don't qualify as startups anymore?

I could say that I just had my Silicon Valley blinders on but even then this was a stupid oversight on my part, as I represent a good number of profitable self-funded ventures as well as the prototypical bootstrap ones - I was obviously thinking only of the typical bootstrap startup in making the statement as I did. Thanks for the clarification.

Re: Let’s Admit Why There Are So Many “Job Hoppers” In Startupland

#33

Post by halostatue »

tptacek wrote: post #2

Turnover rate: a FANTASTIC question to ask at your next job interview. Keep them on their toes. We love the people who ask hard questions. If the person interviewing you doesn't: don't work there. Thanks for that post.

I love that question when it's asked, mostly because we have people who love to keep working at my company because of the people who work here.

You'll often get a better answer to the question, though, if you ask it of the junior person in the room (e.g., the engineer if the hiring manager has brought one).

Re: Let’s Admit Why There Are So Many “Job Hoppers” In Startupland

#34

Post by brerrabbit »

petekazanjy wrote: post #17
jamesshamenski wrote: post #3

Genius = "TheFunded.com for employees to privately rate their employers"

This is actually one of the use cases we're most proud about on Unvarnished ( Community-powered professional reviews http://www.getunvarnished.com ): the ability for information about hiring managers to float as well as information about employees. So if a boss has high turnover rates under him, the idea would be that the reason why could float on his Unvarnished profile, such that would-be employees can get this inf…

>Awesome hiring managers should get credit for being awesome.

Highly unlikely considering what you have created. Anonymity and credibility are mutually exclusive. What you have here is a libel engine.

Re: Let’s Admit Why There Are So Many “Job Hoppers” In Startupland

#35

Post by dschobel »

wheels wrote: post #29
dschobel wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never had any luck getting a serious answer to that question. It's always hand-wavy fluff. It's the employer's equivalent of "what is your biggest weakness". It just tests their ability to BS.

Not so. Turnover rate is something you can measure. They can either choose to lie about it or not. Biggest weakness is subjective.

Certainly the number would be objective, the subjective part would be establishing an industry standard against which to compare it. Without context, the number alone can't tell you all that much.

Honestly, the most surefire litmus test I've found is ex-employees who still speak positively about the employer.

Re: Let’s Admit Why There Are So Many “Job Hoppers” In Startupland

#36

Post by albemuth »

wheels wrote: post #29
dschobel wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never had any luck getting a serious answer to that question. It's always hand-wavy fluff. It's the employer's equivalent of "what is your biggest weakness". It just tests their ability to BS.

Not so. Turnover rate is something you can measure. They can either choose to lie about it or not. Biggest weakness is subjective.

It would also be expected for the interviewer to explain that number.

Re: Let’s Admit Why There Are So Many “Job Hoppers” In Startupland

#37

Post by btilly »

petekazanjy wrote: post #17
jamesshamenski wrote: post #3

Genius = "TheFunded.com for employees to privately rate their employers"

This is actually one of the use cases we're most proud about on Unvarnished ( Community-powered professional reviews http://www.getunvarnished.com ): the ability for information about hiring managers to float as well as information about employees. So if a boss has high turnover rates under him, the idea would be that the reason why could float on his Unvarnished profile, such that would-be employees can get this inf…

I heard about you guys on NPR, but didn't call in because I was driving. I have a few concerns.

1. Your basic value proposition rests on getting people to pay money to have the ability to respond to things said about them. That's going to leave a bad taste in people's mouths.

2. Many people (like me) have deliberately chosen to not join facebook. We can't even try to address issues we see.

3. Identity is much more complicated than you acknowledge. My name is Ben Tilly. I'm at Google. People by the same name can also be found in a US college, doing graphic design in New Zealand, and being a nurse in England. Just to name a few that come up off of the top of my head. How do you tell which Ben Tilly should be able to respond to a bad comment about someone named Ben Tilly at Rent.com?

4. Anonymity is not so easy to protect. Only a small fraction of people comment online. A given manager only manages a small number of people. If a negative comment appears, frequently it is surprisingly easy to make an educated guess. If the comment is at all detailed, an analysis of writing style will usually confirm that guess. Unless a large fraction of people in your environment are commenting, the level of anonymity is limited. (Particularly if the boss can get access to proxy logs saying who was visiting getunvarnished, when.)

Re: Let’s Admit Why There Are So Many “Job Hoppers” In Startupland

#38

Post by gamble »

The best thing an employee can do is ask themselves "Will I be happy right now if I take this job?" Working for a company because they've promised you stock, or career advancement, or a mission in life is a surefire way to guarantee disappointment when the promises fail to pan out. Even the best-meaning managers tend to be grossly optimistic when pitching their companies to a new hire. If the job is satisfying from day one, nothing that fails to happen down the road will be a cause for bitterness and regret.

Re: Let’s Admit Why There Are So Many “Job Hoppers” In Startupland

#39

Post by ad93611 »

As PG says, "Economically, you can think of a startup as a way to compress your whole working life into a few years."[1] The time scales that people use to define "Job Hoppers" is wrong. At most big companies you cannot learn or accomplish much in a short time-frame because things move slower. However, in a startup 6 months is a long time to do something concrete.

[1] - http://www.paulgraham.com/wealth.html

Re: Let’s Admit Why There Are So Many “Job Hoppers” In Startupland

#40

Post by btilly »

dschobel wrote: post #8
tptacek wrote: post #2

Turnover rate: a FANTASTIC question to ask at your next job interview. Keep them on their toes. We love the people who ask hard questions. If the person interviewing you doesn't: don't work there. Thanks for that post.

I've never had any luck getting a serious answer to that question. It's always hand-wavy fluff. It's the employer's equivalent of "what is your biggest weakness". It just tests their ability to BS.

You just have to ask the question in a surprising way to get surprising honesty.

"Tell me why the last three people to leave your team left?" "How long ago was this?" Then at a different point in time, "How big is your team?"

You are likely to get accurate answers. You can do the math. And the way they talk about the departed will tell you volumes about their environment.

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