Live data from Hacker News

Before You Grow

blog.ycombinator.com

141–150 of 175 posts

Re: Before You Grow

#141
post #33

Who finds actual value from Net Promoter Score? It's a vanity metric, just like asking "would you pay $10 for this?" instead of getting someone to actually pay $10. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_Promoter#Criticism_of_NPS

You're correct, the number by itself, doesn't provide a ton of value beyond a measurable KPI. For some companies however, that KPI is one of their core metrics. Some companies even base compensation around the score. That said, the NPS methodology is much more than the overall score. The real value is in the individual scores, verbatim feedback and its proven ability to tie those results into both growth and churn. A…

atrributing verbatim feedback to NPS is misleading though. getting feedback is just talking to customers, surveys and methods that have existed for years. saying its part of the NPS methodology is giving it credit for something it did not invent.

Re: Before You Grow

#142
post #126
post #33

Who finds actual value from Net Promoter Score? It's a vanity metric, just like asking "would you pay $10 for this?" instead of getting someone to actually pay $10. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_Promoter#Criticism_of_NPS

I think a good NPS survey asks why instead of just collecting a number and a great founder follows up to learn even more about why.

at that point its just a survey. why even prepend the buzzword "NPS" into it?

Re: Before You Grow

#143

What do you do if you make a B2B product that gives your customers such a big competitive advantage in the market that they won't talk about your product, actively hide that they use it, and refuse to let you tell others that they use it?

Then you want to bargain a discount, a faster delivery, a whatever, for being a public reference.

In other words, if they want something, and want it badly, instead of monetizing it with $$, monetize it with a case study.

Personal favor also. You go the extra mile for one user/infleluencer/decision maker in a customer company. Then ask to return the favor: "could you spend 15 minutes talking to this prospect of mine, it would help me a lot".

They can say no, find an excuse. But it will hurt them because they know you helped them unreasonably in the past, it was valuable to them, and you may be less willing to do so in the future.

Some will say yes. You just need one or two.

Re: Before You Grow

#144
TL;DR - Two good ways to measure if you're making something people love: 1. Your users actively tell their friends about your product. 2. NPS surveys.

In the beginning it seems like the best way to measure if people are telling their friends is by not measuring at all. Just talk to users. You'll find out if people are about to tell their friends or how new users found you (an existing user sent them your way).

I'm always weary of surveys since they can be a dangerous mix of qualitative and quantitative. NPS seems solid since there's no denying a number. Sometimes I see NPS surveys that only ask for the rating (1-10) and don't ask a follow-up question ("Why did you choose 5?"). This is such a missed opportunity since the "why?" text can contain feedback gold. There's also no substitute for following up after the NPS survey to do more in-depth qualitative feedback gathering through user interviews.

I'm curious to hear more about what Sam thinks about measuring DAU/WAU/etc in the beginning.

Re: Before You Grow

#145
post #13
post #2

"And if you’re just starting out, take the time to build a product your users love, no matter how long it takes. " There's this weird balance between the lean "get it out as soon as you can, fail fast" and "make sure it's a good product before you ship".

What Sam meant was "take the time to build a product your users love, no matter how long it takes, before you focus on growth " (addition mine). You should absolutely release your product to customers to gather feedback as early as possible, just don't fuel growth by spending before you're sure you've got the product 100% right and people love it.

What I think is missing in this is the matter of customer service. Get that right and everything follows, get that wrong and you are going to be slowed down by growth because far too much customer service time is spent along the way.

Imagine you sell a simple widget available in three sizes and two colours. A very simple product. Yet 10% of sales result in returns. If it takes you three days to respond to returns requests and then another hour processing a return weeks after the customer requested it then you are also going to have some damage done to your company brand on social media and customers that will not buy from you again.

It is not actually the widget that is the product, it is the whole sales process for that widget via the website that is the product. The customer service aspects of it need to be done really well before you grow. In the above example you can build out the forms for managing returns so that there is minimal effort needed, a scan and a mouse click in the warehouse, all communication with the customer handled totally automatically and procedures in place for the parts of the process that do need a human.

It can take weeks of work to get all of the customer service elements working properly, many of those aspects might seem to fail cost benefit analysis at the start, why spend ages making neat forms so your customer can return your product when you are really concerned with selling the product? Yet, if growth happens, this will be important. It could take an hour to process a returned widget when you take into account what happens in the warehouse, the office and in accounts. Or this task could be done in a leisurely five minutes if organised. The former is bad for the brand, the latter much better. You could get ten returned widgets a day, taking all day to do. This would deny you the time to build out those customer service forms needed for the five minute process to happen. You would need to hire an order manager person or a programmer to put the back end systems in place or else you are going to be stuck processing returns for unhappy customers, late, all day, every day. Maybe if you work hard they will not rate your widgets so badly.

So it is a classic step in time saves nine. But the product isn't just the widget, it is the distribution and customer service. Customers won't be able to love your product if they cannot get it or if you cannot sort their problems out with it.

Now managers with sales targets to hit could start advertising the widget before all of the customer service parts are in place. They may view too many returns as a nice problem to have and just think they can hire some interns if help is needed with that. Growth is gone for, widgets sell well but with the ten fold increase in sales is a ten fold increase in returns. Before long a whole returns department is established. This gains its own inertia and involves so many people that it becomes practically impossible to implement a simple form change to speed up customer returns.

The widget itself can be quite boring, it doesn't have to set the world on fire. The product is bigger than that, it is the brand, customer service and other things. This is what customers must love, and part of building a product they love is the dull customer service stuff. If you don't get those bits finished before you grow then you are just growing the amount of work for yourself.

Re: Before You Grow

#146
post #7
post #2

"And if you’re just starting out, take the time to build a product your users love, no matter how long it takes. " There's this weird balance between the lean "get it out as soon as you can, fail fast" and "make sure it's a good product before you ship".

Get it out as soon as you can to gather feedback, possibly in closed beta. Wait before net promoter score is good enough before spending lots of money on marketing?

Reminds me of the Sean Ellis 40% survey: http://www.startup-marketing.com/using-survey-io

Re: Before You Grow

#147

What do you do if you make a B2B product that gives your customers such a big competitive advantage in the market that they won't talk about your product, actively hide that they use it, and refuse to let you tell others that they use it?

Then you want to bargain a discount, a faster delivery, a whatever, for being a public reference. In other words, if they want something, and want it badly, instead of monetizing it with $$, monetize it with a case study. Personal favor also. You go the extra mile for one user/infleluencer/decision maker in a customer company. Then ask to return the favor: "could you spend 15 minutes talking to this prospect of mine,…

I have tried to do this quite a bit, but they are all reluctant to be that person. Interestingly social proof seems to be unimportant in my industry, but it is a pain I can’t do case studies on my customers.

One of the more amusing things is different divisions of the conglomerate that owns my main competitor are among of my largest customers. I am always amazed how little internal communication there is within large companies.

Re: Before You Grow

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're correct, the number by itself, doesn't provide a ton of value beyond a measurable KPI. For some companies however, that KPI is one of their core metrics. Some companies even base compensation around the score. That said, the NPS methodology is much more than the overall score. The real value is in the individual scores, verbatim feedback and its proven ability to tie those results into both growth and churn. A…

atrributing verbatim feedback to NPS is misleading though. getting feedback is just talking to customers, surveys and methods that have existed for years. saying its part of the NPS methodology is giving it credit for something it did not invent.

You're right, feedback isn't exclusive to NPS, but you're missing the point. It's the type of feedback that is the critical difference here.

Yes, you can ask any customer any question and get a response, but does that question/response elicit the same intelligent and predictive value of the NPS questions? Will randomly surveying your customers generate the same response rate as an NPS survey?

NPS is a proven methodology with predictive intelligence and high response rate, what you're suggesting is not. The choice is yours though.

Re: Before You Grow

#149
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a good NPS survey asks why instead of just collecting a number and a great founder follows up to learn even more about why.

at that point its just a survey. why even prepend the buzzword "NPS" into it?

There is a clear difference between "just a survey" and an NPS survey. If you don't know the difference, I suggest you do some research.

Re: Before You Grow

#150
post #77

This is good advice but on a practical level isn't clearly compatible with other advice like "fix the plane while it's flying". Also I was under the impression YCombinator focuses on helping companies grow and organizes a demo day 3 months later to help them raise money from VCs. The pg article even mentions growth targets during YC. If this is true then companies accepted to YC should already have a product people l…

I'm not affiliated with YC in any sense but trying to clarify some things: " fix the plane while it's flying ". This is typically advice for startups that have found product-market-fit (i.e. have a product people love) but there are a million other things broken. In that case the advice is often to fix these things "while flying", i.e. while simultaneously growing sales and the company in general. " organizes a demo…

What's the difference between "early traction" and "early 'growth'"?
Post reply on HN