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93% of 2006 AAA-rated subprime mortgage-backed securities now rated junk

nytimes.com

11–20 of 72 posts

Re: 93% of 2006 AAA-rated subprime mortgage-backed securities now rated junk

#11

what does this have to do with news.yc ? it's not even about startups!

From the FAQ:

"On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.

Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic."

This one's a bit of a gray area, as it's heavily political in nature, but the mechanics of loan securities is of both intellectual and personal interest to what I'd imagine is a heck of a lot of HN readers.

Re: 93% of 2006 AAA-rated subprime mortgage-backed securities now rated junk

#13
post #9
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that the institutional investors buying the bonds are much smaller, and there is no way to keep the information from leaking. Therefore most of those investors won't be willing to pay for the bonds, and the ones that can pay will be paying less money. That doesn't mean that this model is not viable. But it isn't viable at the kind of margins that the rating agencies would like to remain accustomed to.

Maybe investors could pool resources to start their own rating agency that would be answerable to them, and publish ratings for everyone to use? There has to be a better system.

The problem with that is that the ratings are a public good. Public goods have some counter-intuitive properties. Investors would have every incentive to individually contribute as little to the pool as possible as long as action happened. Economic theory says that one of four things is likely to happen. Those are:

1. The knowledge is worthwhile to a small group (often just one) of investors, who fund it. The memorable phrase for this is "the exploitation of the large by the small." (A practical example of this is OPEC and high oil prices. The complicated negotiations OPEC engages in illustrate the desire of members of the group to contribute as little as possible to provisioning the public good.)

2. An organization exists that investors belong to for some other reason which funds the ratings. (A practical example of this how people belong to AAA for membership benefits, but then AAA lobbies for road improvements.)

3. A coercive organization intervenes and forces the matter. (Virtually all government regulations fall into this category.)

4. The public good is not provisioned. (What happened to investors who wanted trustworthy ratings.)

Read The Logic of Collective Action for the classic introduction to this topic.

Re: 93% of 2006 AAA-rated subprime mortgage-backed securities now rated junk

#14
post #4

It seems to me that rating agencies should be paid by the institutional investors that buy the bonds, not the banks trying to sell them. That might help the incentives line up better. Am I crazy? Nobody suggests this, and I think I'm missing something crucial here.

Rating agencies seem like an absurd idea altogether. Have they never heard of the perils of having a single point of failure? Much less a single point of failure that's a government-created oligopoly? Yikes.

It seems that businesses are just running on an outdated model developed when information sharing was a lot harder, so only condensed forms like quarterly reports and press releases were feasible. But now that information sharing is a lot easier, shareholders should be demanding more openness from businesses -- yes, today a lot of that information is considered to be a trade secret, but at the same time shareholders need to stop allowing businesses to get away with what's equivalent to deceit through "creative" accounting (e.g. apportioning profits/debts amongst subsidiaries). That's just a textbook example of exploiting information asymmetry. Shareholders should expect more information about the business' books and transactions. There must be some natural equilibrium between being open about transactions and protecting strategic advantages, but right now we have the functional equivalent to price fixing, er, information fixing -- companies don't release relevant information because "no other company does" and shareholders don't expect real operating information either because that's not part of the status quo.

Wouldn't an investment bank that was so confident in the principles behind its analysis that it was willing to list all its transactions in a continuously-updated XML file, despite the risk of copy-cats, seem like a pretty damn good investment? They wouldn't have to divulge their proprietary methods of analysis, just make their holdings public. This would greatly improve the efficiency of markets as investors could use their own proprietary methods to estimate the risk of an entity's portfolio management strategy when deciding whether to invest in it.

And there's definitely historical precedent for this -- the fabled value investor Benjamin Graham didn't go to great lengths to hide his trades, instead he'd use them as examples in his classes, and yeah, people copied him. And he still made boatloads of money.

Re: 93% of 2006 AAA-rated subprime mortgage-backed securities now rated junk

#15
Krugman fails to mention that this is the corrupt fallout from his cheerleading in 2002 for low interest rates in order to create a housing bubble to fill the void of the .com bubble !

"Alan Greenspan needs to create a housing bubble to replace the Nasdaq bubble." - Krugman 2002

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/02/opinion/dubya-s-double-dip...

Re: 93% of 2006 AAA-rated subprime mortgage-backed securities now rated junk

#16
post #14
post #4

It seems to me that rating agencies should be paid by the institutional investors that buy the bonds, not the banks trying to sell them. That might help the incentives line up better. Am I crazy? Nobody suggests this, and I think I'm missing something crucial here.

Rating agencies seem like an absurd idea altogether. Have they never heard of the perils of having a single point of failure? Much less a single point of failure that's a government-created oligopoly? Yikes. It seems that businesses are just running on an outdated model developed when information sharing was a lot harder, so only condensed forms like quarterly reports and press releases were feasible. But now that in…

Well, it's more subtle than that. The big ratings agencies are Fitch, S&P and Moody's. They are competitors for the business of issuers. So each one is incentivized to rate higher than the others, without blatantly being seen to take the piss.

The problem with complete openness is that it encourages short-termism. You see this even with quarterly results, companies that have recently gone public (and thus have minimal reputation) manage from quarter to quarter to quarter and are hugely volatile. Imagine working for a manager who only cares about the share price tomorrow.

The risk of your XML file is not copycats, it's front-running.

Re: 93% of 2006 AAA-rated subprime mortgage-backed securities now rated junk

#17
post #5

When people say they will act one way and have financial incentives to act another, expect them to follow the financial incentives. Appropriate regulation can help for a bit. But unfortunately the regulated party has incentives to provide incentives (such as contributions to political campaigns) to gain control of the regulations. This leads to regulatory capture that then renders the regulations ineffective. In a pe…

which would mean that they wouldn't be paying out absurd bonuses

No it wouldn't. Investment banks are huge and diverse businesses. If you're an FX trader, nothing whatsoever to do with mortgage-backed securities, and you've done your job well this year and made excellent profits (which for the bank as a whole offset their losses) then why shouldn't you get a bonus as usual?

Of course the loss-making traders shouldn't get bonuses (that is after all the point of the bonus system) but lumping everyone in with them is both inaccurate and counter-productive.

Re: 93% of 2006 AAA-rated subprime mortgage-backed securities now rated junk

#19
post #6

93% isn't bad luck. 93% is fraud.

Not that I think everything was above-board, but to be fair, these are hugely correlated instruments: it's not reporting 93% of all AAA debt tanked, but 93% of all AAA-rated derivatives of subprime mortgages. Given the subprime-mortgage crash, it's not surprising that everything tied to subprime mortgages uniformly tanked too. The way an AAA-rated derivative of a subprime mortgage could exist to begin with was via "t…

but to be fair, these are hugely correlated instruments

That makes them more risky, not so? How did they get the AAA rating then?

Re: 93% of 2006 AAA-rated subprime mortgage-backed securities now rated junk

#20
post #15

Krugman fails to mention that this is the corrupt fallout from his cheerleading in 2002 for low interest rates in order to create a housing bubble to fill the void of the .com bubble ! "Alan Greenspan needs to create a housing bubble to replace the Nasdaq bubble." - Krugman 2002 http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/02/opinion/dubya-s-double-dip...

Now I don't understand what your motive is - but your quote is taken waaay out of context...

Original quote: "The basic point is that the recession of 2001 wasn't a typical postwar slump, brought on when an inflation-fighting Fed raises interest rates and easily ended by a snapback in housing and consumer spending when the Fed brings rates back down again. This was a prewar-style recession, a morning after brought on by irrational exuberance. To fight this recession the Fed needs more than a snapback; it needs soaring household spending to offset moribund business investment. And to do that, as Paul McCulley of Pimco put it, Alan Greenspan needs to create a housing bubble to replace the Nasdaq bubble."

Here Krugman basically quotes another source. The way I interpret this quote (and article) is not cheerleading for lower interest rates. The message to me is that whole system is unsustainable and that only move that will be able to perpetuate the lie is to replace one bubble with the next.

In this context Krugman's vision has proven prophetic.

The whole notion, nothing personal - I have noticed it more than once, that Krugman somehow argued that replacing one bubble with another is good for economy somehow is ridiculous.

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