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What I learned from spending 3 months applying to jobs after a coding bootcamp

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Re: What I learned from spending 3 months applying to jobs after a coding bootcamp

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By "live", I mean "do the optional parts of life", like vacation, date, spend money on hobbies, rent a place other than the cardboard box under the bridge, etc. The problem with an absolute is its absoluteness.

So, you just need to acknowledge the risk you're taking on. You can "live", but if you lose your job and are unable to get one for 6-12 months, then not having a savings will be a disaster . What if you're disabled? You'll have to hire a lawyer to help you get on SS, and in the meantime you can't break your apartment lease or car payments to dynamically lower your cost of living quickly. It's just a classic retelling…

> So, you just need to acknowledge the risk you're taking on.

Exactly. Every important decision is a risk and rewards assessment. A high risk is obviated by a high enough reward, and vice versa.

Re: What I learned from spending 3 months applying to jobs after a coding bootcamp

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was taught: For the first 2 years, live on 50% of your income. Eat Ramen, coupons, live like a begger, and save up 1 year of income. Then divide that by 12 and use that as a salary for a year while collecting another year. Repeat. Steady income, always a year behind. Of course this was back when I was trying to go into film. A bit more unstable than software development.

Interesting, I hadn't heard of this before. That said, it's not easy in some cities where rent is 40-50% of your income.

> Eat Ramen, coupons, live like a begger, and save up 1 year of income.

It's unsexy, but one doesn't have to live in the hottest part of town, or go to the newest restaurants every weekend.

But the problem is that people are to led to believe that programming == tech money == big living, when it's really decent middle-class living which means one should still budget, which may mean not keeping up with the Joneses.

That being said, 50% is really a stretch these days. 25% would be more realistic for most yuppies in America, and 33% for those more financial prudent.

Re: What I learned from spending 3 months applying to jobs after a coding bootcamp

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've not ever really had my github brought up in interviews nor known anybody else that has. If you could direct me towards a resume, though, I'd be totally happy to try and estimate.

My github account was brought up in a recent technical interview. The hiring manager felt that my account lacked professionalism because I had several >= 1 year old, unfinished repositories.

That is... bizarre. He should look at the abandoned internal repos of the average software company's experiments and realign his expectations with reality.

Re: What I learned from spending 3 months applying to jobs after a coding bootcamp

#244
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't say that makes them "better", but it's possible to shorten the time needed to learn to program by quite a lot. Though I mean more like 6mo-12 mo for most people if they do it 60+ hours/week with the right mentor to point them in the right direction. Our current education system isn't always the most efficient way to learn. Skip the unrelated to programming classes, the extra curricular things, make people…

> Our current education system isn't always the most efficient way to learn. Skip the unrelated to programming classes, the extra curricular things, make people basically sleep, eat, and code for a few months and it's doable. This attitude is the reason why I am strongly in favor of expanding vocational schools and training in the United States and Canada. People who do not actually care about learning or thinking sh…

> People who do not actually care about learning or thinking

I don't want to waste money in our poorly-ranked, expensive schools where professors aren't even paid enough to live on. I instead utilize the resources available to me online to learn it faster and cheaper, supporting education reform. It's not apathy towards "learning and thinking" to take a more direct path. My goal was to learn to code so I could get a job, I've done it, plenty of people have done it. Do some people bootcamps and suck? Yes. Do some self-taught people suck? Yes. Have I seen people with college degrees suck? Also yes.

Re: What I learned from spending 3 months applying to jobs after a coding bootcamp

#245

For some strange reason people hate recruiters, but during my most recent job search - a month ago - I worked with seven recruiting companies. I was submitted to 15 jobs after filtering for commuting distance, technology, salary requirements. First noticed that I filtered based on salary. Most companies don't divulge salary ranges but recruiters know that up front. Out of the 17: 2 - positions already filled before I…

How did you get one recruiter to submit you to 17 different positions? Any time I deal with a recruiter they seem to stop (or at least really slow down) trying to find you something until they hear a firm 'no' from whoever they submitted you to. I think the most phone screens a single recruiter ever got me is two in a single week....maaaaybe three. And only one in-person interview at a time. It took a lot longer than…

I briefly worked as an accounting recruiter[1]. It's extremely plausible one person could be submitted to 17 different positions in a week, while another person gets one every other week.

Getting interviews is as much politics as it is being qualified. At the place I worked, recruiters owned their job listings and their applicants. You get paid more if you fill your jobs with your own applicants, for what I think are obvious reasons. Recruiters would only ask around for applicants if they didn't have anyone qualified for the role. So if the recruiter who interviewed you doesn't have a lot of job openings, and you are a pretty average candidate, you might not get sent out to a lot of companies, even if you are more qualified than other applicants.

On the other hand, if you have a candidate who has a great resume, you probably want to keep them for one of your own jobs as well. The candidates who got the most offers were generally candidates who had an uncommon background (and therefore would be difficult to place yourself) or who were liable to get hired before you could match them with one of your own openings. In that case you'd send an email to the other recruiters with a brief overview of the candidate (background, salary expectation, etc) and ask them if they had any openings for them.

In my experience, recruiters engaged in illegal hiring practices as well. For instance, if a company did/didn't want older individuals, you'd talk about whether they were interested in "seasoned" individuals (seasoned ostensibly being a reference to their experience) or set the experience required since college at [x] number of years, where [x] + 22 = the age of individual you were looking for. It was also well known which hiring managers wouldn't look at the resumes of women, or of individuals with "urban" names, etc.

Companies that were terrible places to work were always looking for "plodders" -- people who spent a lot of time between switching roles (4 or more years). The expectation being that they would be less likely to quit. Other companies really want people who are "climbers" -- people who tend to switch jobs or get a promotion every 18-36 months.

The candidates who got the most interviews were white males who went to a prestigious university, did internships, worked in a big-4 consulting firm for a few years, and then spent 1.5 - 3.5 years at each job after that point. They were referred to as "extremely presentable," in the sense that they almost always would interview well. Their recruiters would often send to interviews where the the hiring manager was asking for an amount below what the person was looking for though as a way of making the applicants available at a given salary look terrible in comparison. This would allow them to drive up the amount they were willing to spend and get some of the higher priced "average" candidates hired.

If you want a job, the best advice I have is to call/send emails to hiring managers at places you'd want to work, and ask them if they would be interested in a person with your background, or if they had any advice for you. Even good recruiters are mostly useful for negotiating salary (since the more money you make, the more they make), trimming the irrelevant parts out of your resume, and coaching you on how to do an interview. If you need help with the second and third points, you are probably better off paying for a career counselor, since they will have your best interests at heart. I suppose a recruiter might be a good choice if you have specific salary/benefits requirements and you aren't great at negotiating, though I've never really thought about that point since negotiation is probably my strongest skill.

[1] Recruiting accountants was the worst job I ever had. I knew nothing about accounting going in to it. Turns out I hate accounting, and talking to accountants all day was hell for me.

Re: What I learned from spending 3 months applying to jobs after a coding bootcamp

#246
post #6

Are people in America seriously getting offers of $120k with no degree, no experience, and not even a side-project? That is mind-blowing. In London, probably the biggest/richest market outside of USA, that sort of salary is beyond what most experienced developers get, even some very good ones. I must be missing something here (some sort of bubble?) because I can't see how businesses can be profitable paying those sor…

Well, if you read Quora, everyone makes millions of dollars writing code. In the real world (e.g. not Silicon Valley), yeah, it's hard to crack six figures--took me about 10 years to do that with a BS in CS, MS in Computer Engineering, and an unused doctorate (Info. Sci. with specialization in human factors). I became successful when I left the PhD the hell off my resume.

Do you leave your publications off the list as well? Curious how long your resume is. I currently have a 4 pager full of pubs, conference service, etc. Thinking I should cull a lot of stuff.

Re: What I learned from spending 3 months applying to jobs after a coding bootcamp

#247
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't say that makes them "better", but it's possible to shorten the time needed to learn to program by quite a lot. Though I mean more like 6mo-12 mo for most people if they do it 60+ hours/week with the right mentor to point them in the right direction. Our current education system isn't always the most efficient way to learn. Skip the unrelated to programming classes, the extra curricular things, make people…

> Our current education system isn't always the most efficient way to learn. Skip the unrelated to programming classes, the extra curricular things, make people basically sleep, eat, and code for a few months and it's doable. This attitude is the reason why I am strongly in favor of expanding vocational schools and training in the United States and Canada. People who do not actually care about learning or thinking sh…

I get what you're saying, but don't agree with the way you're generalizing. You make it sound like vocational schools are only good for getting rid of the undesirables, while the real scholars attend proper universities.

Discourse in topics irrelevant to my career doesn't put food on my table (usually). I'd rather graduate from and pay for a shorter, more focused program than spend $50k/year to have topics I once enjoyed ruined by misdirection and absurd coursework I have no control over.

Re: What I learned from spending 3 months applying to jobs after a coding bootcamp

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you call it out to me during your interview during my standard warm-up question of "what have you done that you are particularly proud of it was challenging" and you don't bomb the rest of the interview then I WILL go look it up. I use things like this to remove any coding skills doubts during a debrief. Just putting it on the resume means there's maybe a 20% chance I'll see it. I'm usually giving the holistic sys…

Note I'm not saying to do interviews in Python and ruby but if you're solid in one of them it's like real working pseudocode compared to Java c# c++. But use your a#1 solidest language. Unless u have more than one and that language makes a particular problem trivial.

I am most comfy with Python but think it is the wrong language for me to do coding interviews. When I was in school, I was taught intro CS in C and Java. I got tripped by a fairly CS 101 question even though I use Python very productively and regularly at work. In C or Java, I'd be able to knock off that question easily.

Re: What I learned from spending 3 months applying to jobs after a coding bootcamp

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a combination of two factors: 1. Programmers have lower status in the UK relative to the US - UK is more status/class conscious in general whereas US is more about money/productivity/impact. 2. Due to a bigger entrepreneurship culture in the US the opportunity cost for programmers is higher and that drives salaries higher across the board.

Yeah, it's the lack of supply that drives salary, benefits and status for American software engineers. I do wonder about the positions that are at or below my salary that have higher status. Like the non-profit public policy lawyer I know, or medical students / doctoral residents, or the business-side people who get to _make decisions_ while I'm kind of just implementing their business decisions. Last winter I dated…

Your ignoring the fact your code can be run infinite times by infinite people.
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