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Is Blockchain Technology Going to Disrupt Our Political System: We Hope So

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Re: Is Blockchain Technology Going to Disrupt Our Political System: We Hope So

#61
post #57

The article discusses foreign actors interfering with the election and proposes blockchain as the solution? That's just crazy - with blockchain a state actor just needs 51% of the mining power and they could pwn the election. There's nothing stopping a state actor for getting 51% of the mining power, and it's plausible that's already the case. If you were a government, wouldn't it be worth spending a few million to b…

If you voted, and such a 51% attack happened, you would notice your vote was reverted. Not to mention getting that 51% mining power plus catching up to the blockchain to be able to reverse it is increasingly expensive the more time/blocks it passes since the transaction.

So yes it's not "perfect", but it sure looks harder to manipulate than a centralized database server that only requires a simple UPDATE sql query to completly and stealthily change an election.

Re: Is Blockchain Technology Going to Disrupt Our Political System: We Hope So

#62
I don't think so and I hope not. All blockchain is, is that it's just a data structure. A linked list with crytographic verification of previous item with distributed consensus verifying a block of linked transactions called miners. There's very little stopping a group of people buying up miners like you'd buy up votes. Loss of centralized vote counting means you are at mercy of the miners and will lobbyists cutting deals to just buy up a giant pool of miners that defeats or censors other votes?

I just think the public's understanding of what blockchain is has been greatly misguided with sensationalist journalism by the media. "Look at Bitcoin it's still running" they said. And how many specific real world problems has Bitcoin solved other than dark markets fueling human misery? It's been around since 2009 and you are telling me it still hasn't found a problem to solve? Ethereum, post-DAO (they are launching another one after the disaster....) and hard fork validated that "immutable and code is law" is not possible when they themselves need to edit the blockchain to make everyone whole. /r/ethereum is now a de-facto HYIP forums from the early 2000s. Combined with an anonymous social media platform to launch scammy ICO by buying up old reddit accounts to sock puppet, manipulate votes and censor people.

What other possible use case does blockchain solve that our current web of database and cloud platforms can't? How does it possibly do it better? (ex. Ethereum vs AWS). And how will blockchain get around to changing the laws & regulations which it so boldly claims as a non issue?

With IRS going after coinbase users, it's only a matter of time before blockchain becomes just another elusive tool for tax payers to throw their hard earned cash at.

Decentralized & immutable they said. It can't exist when you introduce profits and you can't have distributed consensus because of it (see Ethereum). If you are working on blockchain technology you should consider pivoting because you are working on a solution that has no problem. Even if there was a problem to solve, it's hard pressed to convince people that just because you have a very complex system of blockchain backed with proof of work or stake, it's somehow above the law and you have nothing but good intentions when you are looking to clear millions of dollars by holding genesis coins.

Name one blockchain tech or company that is killing it right now. In fact the only blockchain company that's doing well are exchanges and brokers cashing on people's ignorance. This won't last, just like CS:GO skin betting websites who naively tried to claim they weren't dealing with fiat money. It won't matter in the eyes of a regulator.

Re: Is Blockchain Technology Going to Disrupt Our Political System: We Hope So

#63
post #22

For a period as a child, I was thrown in among the happy-clappy sort of evangelical Christian [1] whose answer to every problem was, "Jesus can help you with that!" No money? Pray to Jesus. Sick? Pray to Jesus. Husband beating you? Pray to Jesus. Not sure if Jesus is real or just Santa Claus for adults? Pray to Jesus! This was an awful experience, but I learned a valuable lesson. When a group of people have exactly o…

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Re: Is Blockchain Technology Going to Disrupt Our Political System: We Hope So

#64
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think human beings can live without group identity. I grew up in a DC suburb full of "open minded" cosmopolitan people. Group identity, along economic, political, and educational lines, was intense. People were vicious in demeaning "the dumb uneducated rednecks that live in flyover country." Group identity was asserted by having the right education, belonging to the right political party, having the right pro…

That used to be a common argument against atheism but I think it's been largely debunked over time (e.g. people can live without religion and won't necessarily replace it with something worse). There's also a distinction to be made between voluntary association through shared interests (e.g. on Hacker News) versus a largely irrational allegiance towards a nation state (which is not usually a deliberate decision but a…

A pretty big percentage of atheists have replaced religion with environmentalism. The narrative is basically the same:

We used to live in paradise but then man was corrupted and if we don't repent fast enough we'll be doomed to eternal damnation.

Re: Is Blockchain Technology Going to Disrupt Our Political System: We Hope So

#66

I feel like the extreme decentralization people just ignore human nature which history has revealed time and time again. The wild west no existing power structure idea is great until some entity inevitably comes along and controls it and its not so decentralized anymore. Decentralization exists when a small enough community can be self-policing and actors have noble goals. That all changes when you get a single bad a…

> The wild west no existing power structure idea is

Let me stop you right there. Decentralization isn't about no power structures, it's about decentralized power structures.

Let's say you walk into the barn, slit a goat's throat, and throw it on the back of your horse to ride off back to your camp. I shoot you dead.

In the Wild West, no one really knows how everyone will react. Who cares about you? Who cares about me? Who cares about the goat? Who else has guns?

In capitalism, everyone knows what will happen. The owner of the goat will summon the (centralized) state to track me down, extract what value it can, and punish me.

In a decentralized system, everyone already knows exactly why you are dead. They take note, and the go back to their work. They know my family almost starved last year. They know we were relying on that goat to survive. They know I consider any attack on that goat to be an attack on my family. They know that everyone in town except for Jeff also agrees that an attack on the goat is a violent attack on me. They know that except for three people, everyone believes I'm justified in using capital violence against someone who would kill that goat. Two of those three, Betty and Jun, think I should use violence, but everyone knows they also won't use violence against me. The third is your cousin, who is rarely around since they're drunk most of the time. If they were to come around, at least 14 other townspeople would defend me to the death, because this was a posted, cut and dry case of self defense for that many.

Everyone already knows these things because they've opted into thousands of organizational structures over time that distribute information about what around them people need, what people believe, and why they believe it.

Not everyone needs to know this information at all times, but everyone is familiar with how to get it, and it's there to see at any time. Not always published openly, but distributed through a web of trust so that it's accessible where it needs to be.

> Decentralization exists when a small enough community can be self-policing and actors have noble goals

Bitcoin proves that wrong. Bitcoin has actors with non-noble goals, and is a quite large community.

Christmas is another example. Lots of people have non-noble goals with respect to Christmas, and it's a huge community, and yet it seems to soldier on just fine without any real central control.

> This is even worse in the blockchain system because it's so intrinsically tied to wealth.

You are still thinking of the blockchain as "just currency". It's not. It's a decentralized banking system.

Let's say I want to rent shares in sheep in my sheep farm. You are thinking I need wealth to buy bitcoins with so I can run a bitcoin business with my sheep. Not true.

If I have four sheep, and I want to do quarter shares... I just need 16 satoshi, or $0.0001 (and a phone).

Now I can issue shares in those sheep that can be traded and cryptographically verified. That's banking. I made a bank. For a hundredth of a penny.

Bitcoin is not valuable because of the wealth it contains, it is valuable for the ways in which it can facilitate financial transactions. The market cap of BTC is the total number of dollars that you could trade it for, which is related to the amount of money needed to float pending transactions, plus some speculative value.

But that's an average according to the market, it doesn't necessarily reflect the value of Bitcoin to any specific individual. The value of Bitcoin to you is what you can do with it. And you don't have to be wealthy to do things with Bitcoin that you used to need a banker to do for you. And you do need to be wealthy to get a banker to do something for you.

> Ethereum is the defacto dictator of their ecosystem and they've exercised that right several times.

OK, let's think about three words we might use to describe Ethereum: Dictatorship, Anarchism, Democrasy.

1) Miners on the main branch have voted several times to make a hard fork. The branch didn't fork until they voted for it. Unless you think those votes were fraudulent, I'd say that looks a lot like democrasy.

2) The old branches still exist! Ethereum Classic is the entire Ethereum universe, except people voted no on the forks. It's even supported on exchanges. That is what anarchism looks like. When someone makes a decision, only the people who agree go along with them.

3) The Ethereum Foundation, and core members of the community form a kind of cultural center of mass, where they have a lot of influence when they speak up, and they know the code better than most, and they have access to information quicker than others in the community. In this sense, they have a vague kind of dictatorial control. They can attempt to wield undue influence.

Honestly though, that's as much a dictatorship as Goldman Sachs is a dictatorship over the U.S. Which... it's kind of true, if I squint my eyes, I'll give you that. But #1 and #2 are actually reasonable high level characterizations of the basic political systems. #3 is at best an interesting metaphor.

Re: Is Blockchain Technology Going to Disrupt Our Political System: We Hope So

#67

Sorry, but this sounds like just another silicon valley startup, living in their own little bubble, thinking that their special code can "change the world". Imagine a log of transactions (a blockchain) confirming that Clinton got 1.5 million popular votes. That has ZERO effect on the Electoral College selecting Trump. So why even bring the election up? This guy might as well say that "a blockchain could stop the Patr…

I'm not saying it would affect the electoral college or electing some politician that I do or do not like. Some problems are entirely due to human nature, have been with us for a long time and will likely stay with us for a long time regarless of technology. However It would certainly be nice to vote online yet anonymously, confident that I can see in a public secure ledger that my voted was counted as a intended and…

Sure but what your are really saying is it'd be awesome if the election results were cryptographically and anonymously verifiable by the voters. Of which the block chain is merely one solution.

How do you get valid voting credentials to nontechnical voters such that they can anonymously vote and verify?

Re: Is Blockchain Technology Going to Disrupt Our Political System: We Hope So

#68

Sorry, but this sounds like just another silicon valley startup, living in their own little bubble, thinking that their special code can "change the world". Imagine a log of transactions (a blockchain) confirming that Clinton got 1.5 million popular votes. That has ZERO effect on the Electoral College selecting Trump. So why even bring the election up? This guy might as well say that "a blockchain could stop the Patr…

I'm not saying it would affect the electoral college or electing some politician that I do or do not like. Some problems are entirely due to human nature, have been with us for a long time and will likely stay with us for a long time regarless of technology. However It would certainly be nice to vote online yet anonymously, confident that I can see in a public secure ledger that my voted was counted as a intended and…

[deleted]

Re: Is Blockchain Technology Going to Disrupt Our Political System: We Hope So

#69
post #52

I feel like the extreme decentralization people just ignore human nature which history has revealed time and time again. The wild west no existing power structure idea is great until some entity inevitably comes along and controls it and its not so decentralized anymore. Decentralization exists when a small enough community can be self-policing and actors have noble goals. That all changes when you get a single bad a…

You need to remember that Bitcoin wasn't designed with modern mining clusters in mind. Once upon a time you could actually get Bitcoin mining with a laptop, of course that's ancient history now, but Bitcoin was originally designed with the intention that if you were a Bitcoin user, you were probably running a machine that was running a mining client. You are correct that history hasn't been very favorable to the noti…

> Bitcoin was originally designed with the intention that if you were a Bitcoin user, you were probably running a machine that was running a mining client.

Isn't that a flawed premise though? There are clear incentives. As soon as Bitcoin had any value, it seems obvious it would start an arms race for people to mine the coins as fast as possible. At that point any normal computer would quickly become almost useless.

It seems like it's inevitable that anything like Bitcoin would quickly lead to mining pools and GPUs and ASICs and other fancy stuff.

You'd need some sort of algorithm that required a minimum amount of CPU power but didn't scale at all so that it doesn't mater if you throw more RAM/CPU at it you still mine at the same rate. Even then people would just be incentivized to use lots of minimum spec machines to increase their relative payouts to a 'normal user'.

Re: Is Blockchain Technology Going to Disrupt Our Political System: We Hope So

#70

Sorry, but this sounds like just another silicon valley startup, living in their own little bubble, thinking that their special code can "change the world". Imagine a log of transactions (a blockchain) confirming that Clinton got 1.5 million popular votes. That has ZERO effect on the Electoral College selecting Trump. So why even bring the election up? This guy might as well say that "a blockchain could stop the Patr…

I'm not saying it would affect the electoral college or electing some politician that I do or do not like. Some problems are entirely due to human nature, have been with us for a long time and will likely stay with us for a long time regarless of technology. However It would certainly be nice to vote online yet anonymously, confident that I can see in a public secure ledger that my voted was counted as a intended and…

Consider that vision from the perspective of historical voter coercion attacks: how would that not provide the perfect way for an employer, church, union, controlling spouse, etc. to demand to see how you voted?

This is the same problem with Bitcoin privacy advocacy: it's a brittle design and the failure mode is complete, undeniable loss of privacy.

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