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Wal-Mart Tells Workers: Don’t Download Labor Group’s Chat App

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Re: Wal-Mart Tells Workers: Don’t Download Labor Group’s Chat App

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even under the current administration, enforcement is weak, and it will probably be weaker under the next administration. One of the more interesting features of the American political environment, over at least the last three and a half decades, is the extent to which the demographic that is (or was) nominally represented by unions has voted for politicians who have made no bones about their intent to weaken the u…

> One of the more interesting features of the American political environment, over at least the last three and a half decades, is the extent to which the demographic that is (or was) nominally represented by unions has voted for politicians who have made no bones about their intent to weaken the unions and labor law, especially at the state level. They failed because the majority of people are hard workers who loathe…

I'm not sure I agree with your assertion that people getting hired and fired within 12 months "ensures" you only work with the best. After all, if we zoom out for a bit, we'll notice that there is not a continual influx of fresh talent (across the spectrum), and likewise there really isn't a continual exodus either (of, say, the poor performers). Instead, I'd argue that in software it's more like a drip feed going into a dish. A little comes in, a little spills over the sides, but there's still a lot in the pool. Someone who is working in software is not going to exit software because they got canned in 12 months. They won't be like "oh, clearly I'm one of the poor performers, time to turn in my badge." Nope, they'll go to work at another software company. Maybe they get fired again, or maybe they're exactly what that company needs and are perceived as "the best." As the saying goes, "one man's trash is another man's treasure," so unequivocally saying you work with the best, or that only the best survive your workplace, or any workplace, is just asinine. As in most things there is a distribution of talent, and talent is a multifaceted thing. So "best" really is an imprecise way to put it. Perhaps where you work, the "best" which survive are all selected for their JavaScript coding skills. They may be douchebags to work with and for, but all that matters is the JS so that's what defines who stays and who goes.

I suppose I'm coming on strong here because I'm tired of the standard line of bull in San Francisco (especially) about how "we only hire the best and brightest, so if you're lucky enough to be invited to join the team you'll be one of the elite few." This mentality is what supports the myth of the unicorn (someone who is amazing at everything). I have worked with some amazing people, but none were "unicorns" because all had (as all humans do) their flaws. One of the brightest people I've ever worked with was also one of the biggest a--holes. It was very difficult for him to reign in his mouth. Was he the "best?" It depends on how you define it. But not to me. I don't care how brilliant you are if I can't stand to work with you.

Personally, I look for the sweet spot. My "best" is generally nice, good people who respect others, are resourceful and motivated to do good work, and who I can count on.

So anytime someone tells you they only hire the best and brightest, I recommend extreme caution. This likely means compensation will be lower (after all, you're being sold the "benefit" of only working with the best and brightest), and the environment is likely to be filled with lots of arrogant people who are oblivious to their own flaws. Ugh. No thanks.

So that turned into a tangent.

In spite of all that, I too don't support or like unions. As other commenters have stated, they end up catering to the lowest common denominator, and don't serve high performers (consciously using a very subjective descriptor here) well. They also may not even serve their members all that well as the union entity ultimately only cares about its own survival. Many years ago I interviewed for a union job as a package loader for UPS. I was surprised to find the wages offered were low, I would've been required to furnish my own equipment, etc. There was no observable benefit of union membership, yet if I had accepted the offer I'd have been required to pay dues. Furthermore, I had friends who worked for Delta as baggage handlers. Their experience was the same. Sure this is all anecdotal, but from where I'm sitting the only ones really helped by the union are the union leadership.

Re: Wal-Mart Tells Workers: Don’t Download Labor Group’s Chat App

#212
post #209
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is Wal-Mart actually doing anything illegal? They are not preventing their employees from downloading anything. They are simply telling the employees that the app collects personal information and that it may be used in nefarious ways. I see no evidence at all that Walmart is stopping the employees from any kind of download of the app.

Its disingenuous and in other countries would get the labor board on their ass, they are using FUD to stop their employees from organizing. Here in the US we have very weak labor law enforcement, thus Trump can have managers dodge a certified union [1] approved by his employees in a vote, and not even get a slap on the wrist for refusing to bargain with the union as his company is legally required to. [1] - http://ww…

Nothing in that article suggests Trump broke the law.

Re: Wal-Mart Tells Workers: Don’t Download Labor Group’s Chat App

#213
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of the more interesting features of the American political environment, over at least the last three and a half decades, is the extent to which the demographic that is (or was) nominally represented by unions has voted for politicians who have made no bones about their intent to weaken the unions and labor law, especially at the state level. They failed because the majority of people are hard workers who loathe…

You have obviously never had to work in a unionized environment, here in Seattle Seattle Public Utilities will show union protected employees the door in a heartbeat if they cannot perform their duties or if management doesn't like them. I've seen & heard it repeatedly, here is a recent example [1]. The only people I've heard of being protected are the barely literate middle management at SPU and Oracle despite the t…

I've worked and been a member of union and my experience was much worse.

I mean, you don't have to look any further than the big 3 automakers. I remember watching news reports of workers leaving mid-shift, going to the bar and doing cocaine. For months.

If it wasn't for the union they would have been fired years ago.

Re: Wal-Mart Tells Workers: Don’t Download Labor Group’s Chat App

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even under the current administration, enforcement is weak, and it will probably be weaker under the next administration. One of the more interesting features of the American political environment, over at least the last three and a half decades, is the extent to which the demographic that is (or was) nominally represented by unions has voted for politicians who have made no bones about their intent to weaken the u…

"Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires." - Steinbeck

That quote infers the opposite is preferable. I'd rather have a population that strives for their dreams rather than sits back and blames the bourgeois for all their troubles.

Re: Wal-Mart Tells Workers: Don’t Download Labor Group’s Chat App

#215
post #212
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its disingenuous and in other countries would get the labor board on their ass, they are using FUD to stop their employees from organizing. Here in the US we have very weak labor law enforcement, thus Trump can have managers dodge a certified union [1] approved by his employees in a vote, and not even get a slap on the wrist for refusing to bargain with the union as his company is legally required to. [1] - http://ww…

Nothing in that article suggests Trump broke the law.

The Labor Board eventually issued a cease and desist, and ordered that the hotel negotiate with the union: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/labor-board-trump-hote...

Re: Wal-Mart Tells Workers: Don’t Download Labor Group’s Chat App

#216
post #213
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have obviously never had to work in a unionized environment, here in Seattle Seattle Public Utilities will show union protected employees the door in a heartbeat if they cannot perform their duties or if management doesn't like them. I've seen & heard it repeatedly, here is a recent example [1]. The only people I've heard of being protected are the barely literate middle management at SPU and Oracle despite the t…

I've worked and been a member of union and my experience was much worse. I mean, you don't have to look any further than the big 3 automakers. I remember watching news reports of workers leaving mid-shift, going to the bar and doing cocaine. For months. If it wasn't for the union they would have been fired years ago.

That is on the employer, they need to be written up if they do not perform their duties, then fired after repeated failures, just like any well run business would do.

The employee could easily sue and retain their job if there was no union and the company doesn't bother to document an employee failing to do their job.

Re: Wal-Mart Tells Workers: Don’t Download Labor Group’s Chat App

#217
post #216
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've worked and been a member of union and my experience was much worse. I mean, you don't have to look any further than the big 3 automakers. I remember watching news reports of workers leaving mid-shift, going to the bar and doing cocaine. For months. If it wasn't for the union they would have been fired years ago.

That is on the employer, they need to be written up if they do not perform their duties, then fired after repeated failures, just like any well run business would do. The employee could easily sue and retain their job if there was no union and the company doesn't bother to document an employee failing to do their job.

I would invite you to read about some of the past issues with unions.

At the big 3 the unions practically took al firing capabilites away from the company. Unless the union agreed, the employee stayed.

And no, unless an employee has a case, they can't sue an employer to keep their job. Not unless they have the cash to keep paying lawyers.

Re: Wal-Mart Tells Workers: Don’t Download Labor Group’s Chat App

#218
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of the more interesting features of the American political environment, over at least the last three and a half decades, is the extent to which the demographic that is (or was) nominally represented by unions has voted for politicians who have made no bones about their intent to weaken the unions and labor law, especially at the state level. They failed because the majority of people are hard workers who loathe…

While a bit more political and divisive than I would have gone with, I think you hit the nail on the head. Those that would benefit most in theory from unions generally have the most experience "in the trenches" with them. This experience shows them that unions more or less became places to protect the lowest common denominator with zero regard for any value they bring to the table. Show me a union that functions lik…

That's the old distinction between the American Federation of Labor, for skilled trades, and the Congress of Industrial Organizations, for low-skilled factory workers. This was a big deal around 1950. In 1955, they merged to form the AFL-CIO.

There are still classic craft unions, with apprenticeship and training programs, but not many are left. The International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers is still around. The Plumbers and Steamfitters have apprenticeship programs. The Animation Guild (Local 839, IATSE) represents animators at the major Hollywood studios. They give classes for members, both on using new technology and on classic techniques. Read The Animation Guild's contract, which applies to most animators in Hollywood.[1] This is for a job more creative than most programming.

[1] https://animationguild.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/2015-2...

Re: Wal-Mart Tells Workers: Don’t Download Labor Group’s Chat App

#219
post #217
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is on the employer, they need to be written up if they do not perform their duties, then fired after repeated failures, just like any well run business would do. The employee could easily sue and retain their job if there was no union and the company doesn't bother to document an employee failing to do their job.

I would invite you to read about some of the past issues with unions. At the big 3 the unions practically took al firing capabilites away from the company. Unless the union agreed, the employee stayed. And no, unless an employee has a case, they can't sue an employer to keep their job. Not unless they have the cash to keep paying lawyers.

> At the big 3 the unions practically took al firing capabilites away from the company. Unless the union agreed, the employee stayed.

That is 100% on the employer, if they can't be bothered to follow the firing process they have negotiated with the union, or fight for a better one, its their own damn fault. They deserve what they get and have to live with the outcomes of their actions, just like any other company or person.

> And no, unless an employee has a case, they can't sue an employer to keep their job. Not unless they have the cash to keep paying lawyers.

Sure, but you'd have a case if your employer can't be bothered to document your dereliction of your job, and employers in cases like the one I linked to often work for a cut of the judgment due to how clear cut a case like that is.

Re: Wal-Mart Tells Workers: Don’t Download Labor Group’s Chat App

#220
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>One of the more interesting features of the American political environment, over at least the last three and a half decades, is the extent to which the demographic that is (or was) nominally represented by unions has voted for politicians who have made no bones about their intent to weaken the unions and labor law, especially at the state level. Honestly, neither of the two major parties have looked out for their in…

The major problem seems to have been that neither party had or has an effective answer to the systemic de-employment (i.e. substituting lower paying jobs) which affects manufacturing hubs post-free trade agreements. The economist argument has always been (a) sign free trade deal, (b) some jobs lost as labor reallocates to cheaper locations, (c) prices for goods decrease enough that everyone is better off. Based on th…

> everyone is better off

That's definitely not the argument. It's that on average most people are better off, or some sort of weighted average of people's well-being.

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