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I had a health crisis in France

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Re: I had a health crisis in France

#281

Post by pmontra »

galacticpony wrote: post #62
pmontra wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And btw there is a very good reason for those tiered systems. Imagine people making 26k and paying 14%. They end up with 22,360. If they get a 5k pay rise they make 31k, pay 30% and end up with 21,700. Would they want that raise? No thanks, but a system preventing some pay raises would be insane.

That's not how it works. You pay nothing on the first 9700€ You pay 14% on the money you make above that, that is 14% of ~17k€ You then pay 30% on the money above that , that is 30% of the extra 5k.

I understood perfectly how it works: it works how you explained.

My example was for a system that doesn't work in that way but switches from 14% to 30% for all the income, and not only for the amount above the threshold.

Maybe I should have worded it better but I take the downvotes I got as a demonstration of my point, that it would be insane.

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#282

Post by m_mueller »

KaiserPro wrote: post #228
m_mueller wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO the US health system needs stricter regulation. Switzerland is doing fine with a system very similar to Obamacare, with one important difference: Item prices for health services and goods are regulated by the government. Yes I know, small rich country yada yada - but if you look at it a bit more closely, the average Swiss is not that different from the average American - GDP per capita, median income, most live i…

switzerland is by far the most expensive health care system in the EU. Crucially it doesn't outperform by very much either.

It's certainly not the most effective, that would probably be Japan. My point was that Switzerland has probably one of the systems closest to the US, so it's the easiest to compare and would also be one of the easiest for the US to copy, were it not for all the pharmaceutical lobbying going on (maybe Trump will solve that?)

I just like to use it to point out how the common American argument against universal healthcare don't really apply.

"it's socialist!" - no, you can have a system where everyone pays in according to insurer determined risk factors, pay less overall and still be within what people at minimum wages can afford. Below that you subsidize with taxes, but that costs very little compared to total health spending.

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#283

Post by vacri »

alkonaut wrote: post #131
vacri wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fundamental problem to solve, though, is getting money back out of medicine. American doctors get paid ridiculous amounts more than doctors in other developed nations. If you want affordable medicine, then medical salaries are going to have to take a hit, so you can afford more staff overall. An example of how much money is in the system: I was talking to a nurse in the US whose adult son had a series of mental i…

US doctors are paid more because they take risks (they have expensive education, handle expensive treatments etc) If an MD cost zero to get, doctors would still be paid well, but not crazy well.

'handle expensive treatments'? What, unlike doctors everywhere else? Apart from the education costs, what is different?

The US also takes in a lot of foreign-trained doctors, who don't have those same education costs.

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#284

Post by zo1 »

omginternets wrote: post #229
witty_username wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But someone has to pay for the health care, so they're losing some freedom (money in this case). That person gives up freedom also on the pricing of your healthcare. Note: that person may be you, depending on taxation

You're equating money with freedom where the question is philosophical: can you be 'free' in any meaningful way if your life is burdened by a lack of education, the financial ruin of having been seriously ill, or the handicap of having been poorly treated for a disease? So yes, that's precisely the trade-off. We accept to lose a little bit of money in exchange for the ability to flourish.

This is a fundamental difference in view point on the concept of "Freedom".

That's also why it's important to call taxation for what it truly is. Until people can be born free without automatic obligation to the state to provide for "your freedom", then they're not really free. That is the only freedom that matters and is definable outside of feel-good politics. So lets be honest: I'm losing the "Freedom" to spend all my money how I choose, so you can be free of the worry that certain "bad" things may happen to you.

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#285

Post by zo1 »

walshemj wrote: post #171
fiatjaf wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That impression probably comes from the fact that you're not on the payer side of the bills, you're always on the receiver side.

Not so every month I see line on my pay check for National Insurance. I am now a net beneficiary but for the first 30+years of employment I wasn't that's how it works.

That's an argument for saving for a rainy day.

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#286

Post by alkonaut »

vacri wrote: post #283
alkonaut wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US doctors are paid more because they take risks (they have expensive education, handle expensive treatments etc) If an MD cost zero to get, doctors would still be paid well, but not crazy well.

'handle expensive treatments'? What, unlike doctors everywhere else? Apart from the education costs, what is different? The US also takes in a lot of foreign-trained doctors, who don't have those same education costs.

The costs involved are higher (though or course of the same magnitude), but money seems ever present e.g the concept of malpractice insurance.

Foreign doctors can certainly help lower salaries for doctors but they need to be a large fraction, if they are a small fraction they'll just enjoy the high salaries of their US educated peers.

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#287

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

jdietrich wrote: post #143
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> free education ( university included ) keep in mind that this is not a given in all EU countries. In the UK (still an EU country, though not for long) one has to either get a student loan from the British state, or cover their own tuition fees.

The British student loan system is essentially a graduate tax in disguise. You only repay 9% of your income over £21,000, deducted automatically from your wages in the same way as income tax. The loan is cancelled after 30 years, regardless of how much you have repaid. Young people understand that it's not a "debt" in the conventional sense of the word.

Two points about this.

One, why tax graduates? In other EU countries, free is free as in beer and you never need to pay anyone anything, for higher education.

Two, why double-tax the future workforce? I mean, they'll pay taxes once they start working anyway. And obviously, those who do go into higher education will end up making more money, and therefore pay more taxes. The state will get back its penny'orth alright, so what's the point of adding a cherry on top?

Full disclosure- I'm from Greece originally but graduated from a UK university, and am repaying a tuition free loan, to which I was entitled as an EU citizen; so personally I benefit from the system (because I'd probably not be eligible for free education anyway). It still doesn't make sense to me.

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#288

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

vixen99 wrote: post #177
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #112

I think I (living in the UK, currently an EU country) understand the mentality behind the US healthcare system(s). I think it's along the lines of "Why should I pay for someone else's healthcare?". I've heard similar arguments from British people (I'm rather more socialist in my outlook than average, for a UK resident, I fear) and I don't really have an answer to that. Why indeed? I'm probably conditioned to answer t…

Your virtue signaling trivializes a vastly difficult issue. The immensely complex question remains, putting aside the problem of organizing a massive state system, of how you balance non-infinite resources with never-ending demand continually extended by medical advances of which people naturally enough wish to take advantage? Given no financial constraints, you don't have to be a socialist to assent to free health t…

OK, but maybe don't assume any motives on my part?

What I'm saying is that free healthcare and education (and other stuff like that) is a cost that civilised societies are prepared to pay to remain civilised, and it's weird that one such society seems to think very differently than the rest in that respect.

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#289

Post by zo1 »

saosebastiao wrote: post #252

As a supporter of Single Payer that grew up in a hyperconservative home, this sort of article completely misses the point for those that oppose it. To a conservative opponent, getting high quality care at a low out-of-pocket cost is a result of health care being a redistributive social good, and "social good" is just code word for "shirking individual responsibility". They look at this situation and this author like…

"And this is the major reason why our politics suck IMO. We have one side of the table that is 100% more government because government is awesome, one side that is 100% less government because government sucks, and nobody is arguing that we should be making government more efficient. And so we never get nice things. "

Well, that'll continue happening as long as you force it to be one giant pie. If you let people choose in the first place, then you can have your nice things. You just have to pay for them yourself along with those individuals that agree with your viewpoint. And the rest of us will have to choose to either join you, or do it some other way.

All arguments eventually lead to choice. Freedom and consent are fundamental properties of a libertarian belief system. We don't get to throw those out just because it'll be efficient. You could argue that it's efficient to just execute all repeat-criminals, but we don't do that because of fundamental human rights that are completely separate to the concept of pragmatism and efficiency.

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#290

Post by badminton1 »

ReallyAnonymous wrote: post #223
badminton1 wrote: post #44

Healthcare professionals are expensive since they require significant preparation. But there is fishy stuff going on too... 1 liter sterile bag of saltwater for intervenous use in American hospitals is charged at over $300, not considering the cost of the procedure, which can total $500. The pharmaceutical industry also does some sort of disservice to society by inflating prices so much. Then, some money stays at the…

High charges of low cost items are because of the amount of free care hospitals provide. I'm a physician in South Carolina and I take care of a tremendous number of fully employed people with no health insurance. Those of us with insurance pay for those without by paying higher costs. This gentleman would have probably received the same treatment in the US (at least at my facility) and received a $300,000 bill, of wh…

Thanks for the explanation.

How would you improve this system? Do you think universal healthcare would help?

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