I had a health crisis in France • Hacker News Board

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#241

Post by Noseshine » Sun, Nov 20, 2016, 5:04 PM UTC

switch007 wrote: post #185

iraklism wrote: post #30

I still giggle a bit every single time one of these EU healthcare stories pops up. It highlights a core difference between one of the two most "advanced" places in the western world. For us Europeans, we don't even think that free healthcare, free education ( university included ) , and free state support when things go wrong is a right. It is a as essential as a core human function as breathing and blinking. We don'…

> For us Europeans, we don't even think that free healthcare, free education ( university included ) , and free state support when things go wrong is a right. Many people in the UK fear for the life expectancy of the NHS. It's featured in the media very often. Ditto welfare benefits. We pay for dental care and prescriptions. Hospitals and health centre are closing left, right and centre. Benefits are being slashed in…

Don't downvote the parent comment, those following British news sources will know that for quite some time UK government seems to be trying to undermine the system and make it so bad that they can then point to how bad it is as justification for privatization.

Just a few examples:

- https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/oct/15/bma-theresa-...

- http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/dr-zoe-norris/nhs-cameron-hu...

- http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/health/news/article4713380.ece

- https://www.ft.com/content/35a3e764-705a-11e6-a0c9-1365ce54b... (or without paywall: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/aug/31/bma-announce...)

Other articles were written by doctors in the NHS, what they had to say didn't sound good at all. But the problem is that the government wants to abolish the "socialized" system and mishandles it (deliberately, as many article writers claim).

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#242

Post by vilmosi » Sun, Nov 20, 2016, 5:04 PM UTC

agumonkey wrote: post #209

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> free education ( university included ) keep in mind that this is not a given in all EU countries. In the UK (still an EU country, though not for long) one has to either get a student loan from the British state, or cover their own tuition fees.

How high are the fees ? In France, even in public Universities you still have to pay something, granted it's borderline free, from the top of my head, 400€ per year. I once chatted with a US girl thinking about going to college, IIRC one year there was almost the price a full fledged private school 5 year cursus. We both went silent for a minute.

It's almost £10000/year for EU citizens. Much higher for everyone else

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#243

Post by brianwawok » Sun, Nov 20, 2016, 5:05 PM UTC

Normal_gaussian wrote: post #215

brianwawok wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now refine that down to college educated nonndrug using people. I suspect it would be even more narrow.

Because you are now selecting for that which is untreatable, assuming access to finance and an education of the parents are the primary factors in treatable deaths. If that is the case the interesting comparison would be the rate for the populace excluding those people.

Here is data that suggests infant mortality ranges from 9.6 in Mississippi to 4.2 in MA. So by this metric, infant mortality is in fact LOWER for many people than in France (or many parts of Europe).

http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/infant-death-rate/?curr...

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#244

Post by DanBC » Sun, Nov 20, 2016, 5:06 PM UTC

estel wrote: post #114

digi_owl wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well ever since Thatcher i get the impression that the UK has been trying to dismantle the NHS. Supposedly one of the first things done in Scotland after getting more internal autonomy was to reverse the changes from back then.

Increasing private provision in the NHS would probably make it more similar to the French system! There's a lot of talk about privatisation of the NHS, but personally I'm really not ideologically attached to the idea of a state-owned health service provided coverage is still universal and free at the point of use.

The current system - a bunch of clinical commissioning groups buying care from GPs employed by their surgeries not "The NHS" and from a bunch of separate hospital and mental health trusts not "The NHS" is pretty much what you describe.

We see a lot of private provision via the NHS (NHS patients going into private hospitals) in mental healthcare, and it's almost all lousy. (Even worse than the NHS MH care, and that's saying something.)

When you have 1 million patient contacts every 36 hours the gap between "good enough" and "good" is a lot of people and a lot of harm.

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#245

Post by riffraff » Sun, Nov 20, 2016, 5:06 PM UTC

iraklism wrote: post #30

I still giggle a bit every single time one of these EU healthcare stories pops up. It highlights a core difference between one of the two most "advanced" places in the western world. For us Europeans, we don't even think that free healthcare, free education ( university included ) , and free state support when things go wrong is a right. It is a as essential as a core human function as breathing and blinking. We don'…

not to ruin your idealism (I agree with your sentiment) but university is not free in large parts of Europe (it is generally cheaper than US though).

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#246

Post by brianwawok » Sun, Nov 20, 2016, 5:07 PM UTC

marcus_holmes wrote: post #193

brianwawok wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at infant mortality for college educated people in the two countries. Much more interesting. The US has massive population segments on drugs and other segments here illegal that dont get medical care. Generally if you are well off, the US is a fine place to be. If you are addicted or poor, it's not so great.

having some kind of health problem is a great way to suddenly not be wealthy in the US, too. I think this is the real benefit of socialised health care. Your wealth will survive a health problem. You will not lose your house because you got cancer. Health insurance works when it works (I have some), but when they decide they're not going to pay your bills, for whatever reason, and you have to pay the bills to keep th…

> Your wealth will survive a health problem.

Really? Maybe a long duration but highly curable health problems. What happens to the blind or someone who loses both arms? Do they really have more wealth than their counterparts in the US?

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#247

Post by DanBC » Sun, Nov 20, 2016, 5:09 PM UTC

gkya wrote: post #68

madaxe_again wrote: post #23

I was hospitalised in France last year - and coming from the UK, which has a social healthcare system too, I was likewise blown away by the quality of care. I was staying in a remote house, miles from the nearest village, an hour from the nearest hospital. After about four days of continuous vomiting in 40 degree heat I caved and called a doctor, in the hope of getting a prescription for antiemetics over the phone. I…

In the UK (Wales) I got to see a hospital, a relative-in-law was terminally ill. The hospital was like a knock off slaughterhouse with thick dust everywhere and blood stains on the walls that stayed for weeks. After that I decided to get a check up every time before I go to the UK to not need the hospital there. I hope not all hospitals are like that there.

Health is devolved in the UK. That means there are 4 separate NHS systems - one in England, another in Wales, another in Scotland, and another in Northern Ireland.

I agree that there are severe problems with the Welsh NHS.

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#248

Post by hartator » Sun, Nov 20, 2016, 5:09 PM UTC

I think it's worth noting that Americans already pay around 20% more taxes for healthcare per capita than Frenchs. Where went the tax dollars? Straightforward corruption is a better answer than "systemic issues".

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#249

Post by switch007 » Sun, Nov 20, 2016, 5:18 PM UTC

switch007 wrote: post #185

iraklism wrote: post #30

I still giggle a bit every single time one of these EU healthcare stories pops up. It highlights a core difference between one of the two most "advanced" places in the western world. For us Europeans, we don't even think that free healthcare, free education ( university included ) , and free state support when things go wrong is a right. It is a as essential as a core human function as breathing and blinking. We don'…

> For us Europeans, we don't even think that free healthcare, free education ( university included ) , and free state support when things go wrong is a right. Many people in the UK fear for the life expectancy of the NHS. It's featured in the media very often. Ditto welfare benefits. We pay for dental care and prescriptions. Hospitals and health centre are closing left, right and centre. Benefits are being slashed in…

NHS is most widely held concern of UK adults in poll "Issues Facing Britain (Issues Index)" by Ipsos Mori (Sep 2016) https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharch...

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#250

Post by cpncrunch » Sun, Nov 20, 2016, 5:20 PM UTC

witty_username wrote: post #120

jdub wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's another way to look at it that I don't think the USA will be ready to understand any time soon: Universal health and education are (key parts of) freedom. You can even put a market spin on it: None of the risks involved in starting a small business in Australia have to do with health care for myself, or for people who might consider joining my small business as employees. I've never felt as if I'm giving up a…

But someone has to pay for the health care, so they're losing some freedom (money in this case). That person gives up freedom also on the pricing of your healthcare. Note: that person may be you, depending on taxation

People in France pay less than half what people in the USA pay for healthcare, and they also get much better quality of healthcare as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_hea...

How are you "free" when you're being scammed by your insurance companies and hospitals into paying more than twice what you should be for your inferior healthcare?