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I had a health crisis in France

latimes.com

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Re: I had a health crisis in France

#61

Post by vacri »

EliRivers wrote: post #7
CarolineW wrote: post #2

But that's socialism, and the USA will never tolerate socialism.

But only if it's called socialism. If it can be called something else, then it will be accepted. In my experience, US citizens (not all, obviously; I'm massively generalising) have been conditioned to be against things labelled socialism, but the level of economic and political knowledge amongst the general public is such that if you don't call something socialism, it is judged on its own merits without people realis…

Ironically, they're all up for small-scale socialism, aka 'insurance'.

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#62

Post by galacticpony »

pmontra wrote: post #26
ThePhysicist wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In France you pay 0 % taxes for the first 9.700 € of income, then 14 % for everything up to 26.791 €, then 30 % for everything up to 71.826 €, then 41 % for everything up to 152.108 € and 45 % for everything beyond that [1]. Hence 23 % effective tax rate sounds reasonable for an average income of around 50.000 €. The tax system in many European countries is similar btw, as is the health system. [1] https://fr.wikiped…

And btw there is a very good reason for those tiered systems. Imagine people making 26k and paying 14%. They end up with 22,360. If they get a 5k pay rise they make 31k, pay 30% and end up with 21,700. Would they want that raise? No thanks, but a system preventing some pay raises would be insane.

That's not how it works.

You pay nothing on the first 9700€

You pay 14% on the money you make above that, that is 14% of ~17k€

You then pay 30% on the money above that, that is 30% of the extra 5k.

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#63

Post by realusername »

wav-part wrote: post #24
kensai wrote: post #9

Medicine is one of those few fields the "socialized" approach is actually the better one. Of course you would prefer a I-don't-want-to-pay-for-others* stance when you are young and healthy (ie provided you were not born with a genetic condition or something similar), but once you start aging and caring, you start appreciating why Medicine as practiced in Europe makes much more sense in the end. *even Ayn Rand alleged…

I-don't-want-to-pay-for-others != I will not insure my health. US health system needs competition more than socialism [1]. [1] https://mises.org/blog/lack-epipen-competitors-fdas-fault EDIT: A really good comment from link above. Mark S - https://mises.org/blog/lack-epipen-competitors-fdas-fault#co... The culprit in virtually all health care or drug price gouging outrages is insurance and "free" taxpayer money. Ameri…

Competition is not the issue, it's private healthcare itself. There is not a single country I know of where private healthcare works.

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#64

Post by gentlehum »

thro32 wrote: post #11

Real problem in US with health (and education...) is that cost has skyrocketed out of control. How much is hearth bypass ? $30k? Other countries do that for $4k with similar quality and better post-op care. Public health care will just transfer more money from poor to corporations (like with education). You need to fix the leaks first, for example sponsor medical tourism to other countries, etc...

$30,000 is a very European estimate. It costs between $90,000 and ~$200,000 out of pocket in the US for a bypass surgery. Probably more for the guy in the article given the extreme nature of the situation/complications that arose.

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#65

Post by DasIch »

ekianjo wrote: post #45
clouddrover wrote: post #8

The US spends more per capita on health care than other OECD countries, even ones with universal public health care: http://kff.org/health-costs/issue-brief/snapshots-health-car... And yet the US has lower life expectancy than those countries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expe...

> The US spends more per capita on health care than other OECD countries, even ones with universal public health care: Sure, but the French social security system (la secu) is completely bankrupt and survives only because France continues growing its national debt. NO matter how you look at it, all these health systems are not sustainable anywhere on Earth.

Germany introduced national health care in 1883 but I'm sure we'll see how unsustainable it is any day now.

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#67

Post by m_mueller »

wav-part wrote: post #24
kensai wrote: post #9

Medicine is one of those few fields the "socialized" approach is actually the better one. Of course you would prefer a I-don't-want-to-pay-for-others* stance when you are young and healthy (ie provided you were not born with a genetic condition or something similar), but once you start aging and caring, you start appreciating why Medicine as practiced in Europe makes much more sense in the end. *even Ayn Rand alleged…

I-don't-want-to-pay-for-others != I will not insure my health. US health system needs competition more than socialism [1]. [1] https://mises.org/blog/lack-epipen-competitors-fdas-fault EDIT: A really good comment from link above. Mark S - https://mises.org/blog/lack-epipen-competitors-fdas-fault#co... The culprit in virtually all health care or drug price gouging outrages is insurance and "free" taxpayer money. Ameri…

IMO the US health system needs stricter regulation. Switzerland is doing fine with a system very similar to Obamacare, with one important difference: Item prices for health services and goods are regulated by the government. Yes I know, small rich country yada yada - but if you look at it a bit more closely, the average Swiss is not that different from the average American - GDP per capita, median income, most live in diverse but smallish cities, lots of cars, lots of guns, high (but still way lower) health spending, all quite comparable - except Swiss have one of the highest life expectancies and can expect treatment for everything treatable while for many Americans this seems to become some sort of raindance.

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#68

Post by gkya »

madaxe_again wrote: post #23

I was hospitalised in France last year - and coming from the UK, which has a social healthcare system too, I was likewise blown away by the quality of care. I was staying in a remote house, miles from the nearest village, an hour from the nearest hospital. After about four days of continuous vomiting in 40 degree heat I caved and called a doctor, in the hope of getting a prescription for antiemetics over the phone. I…

In the UK (Wales) I got to see a hospital, a relative-in-law was terminally ill. The hospital was like a knock off slaughterhouse with thick dust everywhere and blood stains on the walls that stayed for weeks. After that I decided to get a check up every time before I go to the UK to not need the hospital there. I hope not all hospitals are like that there.

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#69

Post by madaxe_again »

rubberstamp wrote: post #57
madaxe_again wrote: post #23

I was hospitalised in France last year - and coming from the UK, which has a social healthcare system too, I was likewise blown away by the quality of care. I was staying in a remote house, miles from the nearest village, an hour from the nearest hospital. After about four days of continuous vomiting in 40 degree heat I caved and called a doctor, in the hope of getting a prescription for antiemetics over the phone. I…

I guess it can be attributed to work conditions of health care professionals in both systems. May be they are better paid and not overworked and hence have a better attitude towards patients under their care as a result.

I'm not sure if they're better paid, but I did get the impression they were infinitely happier than their British equivalents - quality of life probably accounts for an awful lot. I don't know though, I'm basing my assumption off a few French medics I know who definitely don't make great money, but do have some pretty great quality of living - near Swiss border, one has a cabin in the woods and a fishing pond, the other paraglides seemingly non-stop. I think there's a different approach to on/off in France, and working hours are definitely far more strictly limited.

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#70

Post by yodsanklai »

Just to give a different perspective, I think it's fair to say French people are very worried that healthcare quality is decreasing. I don't know if it's really the case but in any case, the system is far from being perfect.

For one thing, some care are very expensive, like dental crowns and implants. In the article, the author says he had to pay 1300 euros for 47 days in the hospital. You're likely to pay more for one dental implant, unless you have a very good insurance in addition to the regular social security (most people don't).

If you have to go to the ER and if you don't have a life threatening condition, expect to wait many hours in an overcrowded waiting room. Moreover, to see some specialists (e.g. eye doctor), you may have to wait for months to get an appointment. The list goes on...

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