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I had a health crisis in France

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Re: I had a health crisis in France

#41

Post by clarkevans »

wav-part wrote: post #24
kensai wrote: post #9

Medicine is one of those few fields the "socialized" approach is actually the better one. Of course you would prefer a I-don't-want-to-pay-for-others* stance when you are young and healthy (ie provided you were not born with a genetic condition or something similar), but once you start aging and caring, you start appreciating why Medicine as practiced in Europe makes much more sense in the end. *even Ayn Rand alleged…

I-don't-want-to-pay-for-others != I will not insure my health. US health system needs competition more than socialism [1]. [1] https://mises.org/blog/lack-epipen-competitors-fdas-fault EDIT: A really good comment from link above. Mark S - https://mises.org/blog/lack-epipen-competitors-fdas-fault#co... The culprit in virtually all health care or drug price gouging outrages is insurance and "free" taxpayer money. Ameri…

Competition in a socialized system exists, it is just at the individual practitioner level, rather than at the administrative level. So, could you explain why administrative (e.g. hospital, insurance, physician network) competition is needed in this field? Historically, it's been more expensive this way, not less.

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#42

Post by thro32 »

lumberjack wrote: post #20
thro32 wrote: post #11

Real problem in US with health (and education...) is that cost has skyrocketed out of control. How much is hearth bypass ? $30k? Other countries do that for $4k with similar quality and better post-op care. Public health care will just transfer more money from poor to corporations (like with education). You need to fix the leaks first, for example sponsor medical tourism to other countries, etc...

I don't think "the cost skyrocketed out of control". The cost is simply reflective of the leverage the health care provider and all the middle men in between hold against the patient. It's just that in other countries you have the government setting up a monopsony and dictating costs and salaries. I don't see how charging $30k for a heart bypass is unreasonable for somebody making $50k/year.

Reducing cost is always good. Is not that mantra of free market and capitalism?

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#43

Post by glandium »

pmontra wrote: post #26
ThePhysicist wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In France you pay 0 % taxes for the first 9.700 € of income, then 14 % for everything up to 26.791 €, then 30 % for everything up to 71.826 €, then 41 % for everything up to 152.108 € and 45 % for everything beyond that [1]. Hence 23 % effective tax rate sounds reasonable for an average income of around 50.000 €. The tax system in many European countries is similar btw, as is the health system. [1] https://fr.wikiped…

And btw there is a very good reason for those tiered systems. Imagine people making 26k and paying 14%. They end up with 22,360. If they get a 5k pay rise they make 31k, pay 30% and end up with 21,700. Would they want that raise? No thanks, but a system preventing some pay raises would be insane.

The interesting thing is that many people believe it's that way, and it can be hard to convince them that it's not.

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#44

Post by badminton1 »

Healthcare professionals are expensive since they require significant preparation.

But there is fishy stuff going on too...

1 liter sterile bag of saltwater for intervenous use in American hospitals is charged at over $300, not considering the cost of the procedure, which can total $500.

The pharmaceutical industry also does some sort of disservice to society by inflating prices so much.

Then, some money stays at the insurance companies instead of going to actually improving healthcare itself.

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#45

Post by ekianjo »

clouddrover wrote: post #8

The US spends more per capita on health care than other OECD countries, even ones with universal public health care: http://kff.org/health-costs/issue-brief/snapshots-health-car... And yet the US has lower life expectancy than those countries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expe...

> The US spends more per capita on health care than other OECD countries, even ones with universal public health care:

Sure, but the French social security system (la secu) is completely bankrupt and survives only because France continues growing its national debt. NO matter how you look at it, all these health systems are not sustainable anywhere on Earth.

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#46

Post by mkl »

CarolineW wrote: post #2

But that's socialism, and the USA will never tolerate socialism.

It's not socialism, it's the normal way to do healthcare in a first world democratic society. Most first world countries are not socialist, but have a proper health system like this.

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#47

Post by ekianjo »

ThePhysicist wrote: post #14
raphaelj wrote: post #6

> My individual burden, however, is far more reasonable than > an American might assume. I pay an annual income tax of > about 23%. How comes this number is that low? Tax revenue in France account for about 48% of the country's GDP[1]. I'm living in Belgium, and my payroll tax is already higher than these 23%. -- [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_reven...

In France you pay 0 % taxes for the first 9.700 € of income, then 14 % for everything up to 26.791 €, then 30 % for everything up to 71.826 €, then 41 % for everything up to 152.108 € and 45 % for everything beyond that [1]. Hence 23 % effective tax rate sounds reasonable for an average income of around 50.000 €. The tax system in many European countries is similar btw, as is the health system. [1] https://fr.wikiped…

You don't live in urban centers like Paris with 50k revenue.

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#48

Post by [deleted] »

lumberjack wrote: post #20
thro32 wrote: post #11

Real problem in US with health (and education...) is that cost has skyrocketed out of control. How much is hearth bypass ? $30k? Other countries do that for $4k with similar quality and better post-op care. Public health care will just transfer more money from poor to corporations (like with education). You need to fix the leaks first, for example sponsor medical tourism to other countries, etc...

I don't think "the cost skyrocketed out of control". The cost is simply reflective of the leverage the health care provider and all the middle men in between hold against the patient. It's just that in other countries you have the government setting up a monopsony and dictating costs and salaries. I don't see how charging $30k for a heart bypass is unreasonable for somebody making $50k/year.

[deleted]

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#49

Post by collyw »

ekianjo wrote: post #31
antirez wrote: post #21

This is normal on all western Europe states. However France has very high standards in general about health care and is regarded as one of the best systems. I think it's time for US citizens to accept that most of Europe has better life expectancy, lower infant mortality than US, and to be ill is not a financial tragedy. Moreover the treatment that a low-income and high-income citizen receives is very similar, so the…

> Europe has better life expectancy, Diet has a lot more to to about that than medical care.

Thats an interesting point, but it would be interesting to see it compared by regions. Southern Europe generally eats a lot healthier than Northern Europe.

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#50

Post by fvdessen »

A healthcare system that I like quite a lot is the Belgian one, which is a nice mix between free market and socialised medicine. In Belgium the government sets standard rates for different kind of medicines and treatments. You pay 8% of your income towards a state health fund that refunds all your health-related spending up to the standard rate. You are free to choose where, when, and what treatment you get. You pay the cost up-front, and then you get refunded by the state. But you only get refunds up to a 'reasonable' rate. In practice most doctors demand little-more than that rate, and thus you get a full refund. You can also subscribe to a private health insurance if you want to get refunds for better options.
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