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The End of Identity Liberalism

nytimes.com

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Re: The End of Identity Liberalism

#41

Post by throwanem »

vuanotino wrote: post #31
jshevek wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree it is not reasonable to say Milo is a white supremacist, in fact they seem to hate him. This says something, I think, about how the term alt right is used. While white supremacists coined the term, they clearly don't own it anymore. Whomever Milo is the leader of, they don't overlap well with white supremacists. alt-right.

The alt right is a huge umbrella. Milo is a Jewish sodomite who likes to cross dress, so it's understandable some people of the alt right loathe him. He's seen by some as a Trojan horse.

> The alt right is a huge umbrella.

Too huge - Daily Stormer neo-Nazi scum are exactly the same kind of problem for the alt-right that NAMBLA used to be for the gay rights movement.

Re: The End of Identity Liberalism

#42

Post by kazagistar »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #4

To paraphrase a commenter on the Times, identities aren't a problem, liberalism isn't a problem, but combined they can mutate into a regressive form of political correctness, where the inability to move on from or ignore the identity politics (on either side!) grinds any form of debate or disagreement to a halt. Kinda like when that college professor (I forget the name) published a paper a while back showing a link b…

I'm just curious, how would you expect the warning to have been "heeded"? I think the problems surrounding single parents are pretty well accepted, but it is just difficult to find morally acceptable solutions for.

Re: The End of Identity Liberalism

#43

Post by vuanotino »

throwanem wrote: post #41
vuanotino wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alt right is a huge umbrella. Milo is a Jewish sodomite who likes to cross dress, so it's understandable some people of the alt right loathe him. He's seen by some as a Trojan horse.

> The alt right is a huge umbrella. Too huge - Daily Stormer neo-Nazi scum are exactly the same kind of problem for the alt-right that NAMBLA used to be for the gay rights movement.

The Right Stuff is funnier nowadays ;-)

Re: The End of Identity Liberalism

#44

Post by throwanem »

vuanotino wrote: post #43
throwanem wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The alt right is a huge umbrella. Too huge - Daily Stormer neo-Nazi scum are exactly the same kind of problem for the alt-right that NAMBLA used to be for the gay rights movement.

The Right Stuff is funnier nowadays ;-)

Just so we're clear, I chose the word "scum" carefully, and the equation with child molesters even more so. I indulge on occasion in hyperbole. This is not such an occasion.

Re: The End of Identity Liberalism

#45

Post by vuanotino »

throwanem wrote: post #44
vuanotino wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Right Stuff is funnier nowadays ;-)

Just so we're clear, I chose the word "scum" carefully, and the equation with child molesters even more so. I indulge on occasion in hyperbole. This is not such an occasion.

You equating white nationalists to child molesters leads me to think you haven't been very careful with your words.

Re: The End of Identity Liberalism

#46

Post by RCortex »

return0 wrote: post #9

Was identity politics a concrete thing or a construction? It seems HRC bet her entire campaign on that and it backfired spectacularly. Were they hoping that it would catch on? Based on what evidence?

Bet her entire campaign? A piece of her campaign, but not the mainstay by any means. Identity politics was a core of trump's campaign.

Re: The End of Identity Liberalism

#47

Post by throwanem »

vuanotino wrote: post #45
throwanem wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just so we're clear, I chose the word "scum" carefully, and the equation with child molesters even more so. I indulge on occasion in hyperbole. This is not such an occasion.

You equating white nationalists to child molesters leads me to think you haven't been very careful with your words.

No, I'm pretty much okay with that.

I mean, I guess there's no reason to suppose a correlation above coincidence between neo-Nazi stupidity and actual child molesting, but in terms of bringing nothing but uselessness and image damage to a larger movement which actually does have value, NAMBLA and neo-Nazis are indistinguishable.

At this point, considering the amount of political hay the progressive media is making out of those assholes, I'm coming more and more to suspect that they're the Trojan horses. False-flagging is a time-honored tactic on the left, after all, and considering the recent testing of the waters toward a "reevaluation" of pedophilia as a sexual orientation harmless in its own right, there is literally no better ideological weapon imaginable against the alt-right than to be able to paint it as a modern resurgence of Nazi fascism.

On the other hand, it's not hard to imagine there actually are some people out there dumb enough to assume that anything progressives think is bad must ipso facto therefore be good. Hanlon's razor applies here as everywhere else, of course, but even in that case, the very kindest accurate description of "alt-right" neo-Nazis would be as useful idiots.

Re: The End of Identity Liberalism

#48

Post by pjlegato »

Why is this flagged? Is a well reasoned discussion of the entire future direction of American politics -- where Silicon Valley is -- somehow less relevant to the tech industry than "The Troubled Friendship of Leo Tolstoy and Maxim Gorky" or "Volkswagen plans 30k job cuts worldwide," both on the front page right now?

I suggest that there is a systemic bias on Hacker News: any article about identity politics that is less than unabashedly laudatory on the theme is almost immediately flagged -- though they often receive numerous upvotes and generate substantial and rational discussion.

Re: The End of Identity Liberalism

#49

Post by throwanem »

pjlegato wrote: post #48

Why is this flagged? Is a well reasoned discussion of the entire future direction of American politics -- where Silicon Valley is -- somehow less relevant to the tech industry than "The Troubled Friendship of Leo Tolstoy and Maxim Gorky" or "Volkswagen plans 30k job cuts worldwide," both on the front page right now? I suggest that there is a systemic bias on Hacker News: any article about identity politics that is le…

The user base of Hacker News is strongly informed by, and representative of, a very specific political strain, so it's not terribly surprising to see an article like this, which questions the foundation and value of one of that strain's core tenets, get flagged to oblivion by users.

I don't think it would be reasonable to assume the mods behave in a similar fashion. Were that the case, I can't imagine I, for example, would still be able to post here at all, let alone to do so and be seen by people who don't have showdead turned on in their profiles - I spent all yesterday arguing against gay marriage! I've run into ideologically driven suppression of discourse enough places on the Internet to recognize its absence when I see it.

Instead, I see a genuine commitment on the part of the moderation team to free and reasoned discussion, even when it tends in directions which I can't help but imagine make them uncomfortable. That's something which, especially in times like these, can't be too highly regarded, and it is in large part why I continue to consider participation on Hacker News a worthwhile use of my time.

Re: The End of Identity Liberalism

#50

Post by return0 »

RCortex wrote: post #46
return0 wrote: post #9

Was identity politics a concrete thing or a construction? It seems HRC bet her entire campaign on that and it backfired spectacularly. Were they hoping that it would catch on? Based on what evidence?

Bet her entire campaign? A piece of her campaign, but not the mainstay by any means. Identity politics was a core of trump's campaign.

Well probably the #1 word in her campaign must have been "women" (personal opinion)
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