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Why the World Needs WikiLeaks

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Re: Why the World Needs WikiLeaks

#151
post #150
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How did you form that opinion? All on your own? Are you a lawyer specializing in the confluence of national security and free speech law? I worked in the defense industry for almost 10 years. I know how that works. > -is that the government interprets the relevant statues such that if you hold a security clearance, So CNN's Cuomo was acting as the trusty Security Officer and was just caring for the poor souls who h…

Now, let's be honest, do think he said what he said just because of the security clearance aspect? I think he said that because he was parroting what administration officials have continually shouted. Presumably CNN verified the credibility of the statement, which made it even more newsworthy. He's basically communicating information given him by another source, judged to be newsworthy because at least one (very sign…

> I think he said that because he was parroting what administration officials have continually shouted.

I think he knew exactly what he was doing. Moreover, even if we take your point that he was just thinking of those with clearance, he was still wrong because his exact quote was "... It is different from the media. So everything you learn about this, you are learning from us. ". Would you say then that those with from the government told him to tell people to listen to CNN for classified material so they can be entrapped?. It doesn't make any sense. The only thing that makes sense is it was a blatant lie because they didn't want people to read what it is in the emails. As much as I try to see it the point of view of "caring for those who hold clearance" I just don't see it...

Moreover, Wikileaks presents materials it is given. To date I don't think it has altered a single email provable fake. Nobody raised their hand and pointed to an email not written by them with their name on it. It sure editorializes material by choosing what to release. But it is what it is. I'd trust it more than CNN for example.

> Second, I think the over-classification of material harms national security.

Yap. Strongly agree with that.

> They sure as hell didn't stop the OPM breach or countless other breaches

That was such a monumental failure, and so embarrassing. I am surprised that not more has been talked about it (but also not surprised too).

> he intentionally leaked or ordered the leak of the identity of Valeri Plame. Cheney is a fscking malevolent sociopath

I believe that too.

> Second, however secure her personal server, I'd be shocked if her server was substantively less secure than whatever the State Department was using.

They are not efficient, and have lots of red tape and such, but they are not all dummies. I think she would have avoided embarrassment if she did keep it there. She sabotaged herself in choosing to go the other route. I think not only Russians accessed it any state actor with even a mediocre attack team would have been stupid not to try to access it. It as a big red target for everyone to see basically.

> That other people have been punished for the same thing Hillary did is beside the point

That is not besides the point. A lot of people in this country believe in fairness (for better or for worse). Special treatment for the politicians is exactly why many voted against her.

Re: Why the World Needs WikiLeaks

#152
post #151
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now, let's be honest, do think he said what he said just because of the security clearance aspect? I think he said that because he was parroting what administration officials have continually shouted. Presumably CNN verified the credibility of the statement, which made it even more newsworthy. He's basically communicating information given him by another source, judged to be newsworthy because at least one (very sign…

> I think he said that because he was parroting what administration officials have continually shouted. I think he knew exactly what he was doing. Moreover, even if we take your point that he was just thinking of those with clearance, he was still wrong because his exact quote was "... It is different from the media. So everything you learn about this, you are learning from us. ". Would you say then that those with f…

I don't think that the CNN reporter (which, to be honest, is basically a hypothetical person to me at this point) was only thinking of those with clearance. I'd bet he either a) wasn't thinking or b) wasn't about to try to reiterate whatever long-winded and complex explanation there was. As I stated, it's not as simple as maybe illegal for people with clearance, not illegal for everybody else.[1]

This is CNN. His only choices as a practical matter were to parrot it or not parrot it. He chose to parrot it. I don't think either choice was intrinsically better, especially for an outlet like CNN.

Maybe this was on one of those more editorializing shows, in which case I can see wider room for disagreement. But I still don't see much to get upset about. And Hannon's accusation harms her credibility far more than what she accused CNN of doing.

Regarding fairness, I understand and respect people's desire for fairness. And I understand that that desire is part of the fury. But it's unreasonable to expect that.

Most of those same people were silent during the Plame affair, and most of the other other half of the country up in arms. It's precisely because of that kind of partisan hypocrisy that high-level officials _must_ be treated differently. It's impossible to disentangle politics from their positions except in the most clear and unambiguous circumstances. Certainly not in a rigorous and consistent manner. Courts aren't equipped to do that; and Congress isn't unbiased. And so the law, wisely, steps back (or should step back), and law enforcement understandably more reticent to step into the fray and risk their credibility. It's far more important for them to keep their hands clean than to punish someone. And while overtime that can build resentment, there's no other easy answer.

In any event, rightly or wrongly voters got to punish Hillary all the same. That is, after all, the last check in a democratic system. And their conviction, such as it was, was legitimate regardless of whether she actually committed any crime. Had she won the election, it would have been just as legitimate.

[1] You simply can't say it's legal for everybody without clearance. First, there's no such law, legislative or judge-made, that gives such blanket protection. Secondly, I can't see the court saying that it could never be illegal. For truly sensitive material (and, for better or worse, courts normally defer to the judgment of the government in that regard), I could easily see the court crafting a rule that requires looking at the specific situation. For example, maybe the first guy to download highly sensitive material from Wikileaks could be thrown in jail. While the 10-millionth has a defense because it's considered public knowledge at that point. And maybe it would be difficult to prove who the first guy was, but that wouldn't make it legal for him. I've only briefly studied the law in this area, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's pretty close to the direction the law is going or maybe where it's already at.

FWIW, a quick Google search suggests that one basis for the presumption that anyone obtaining or retaining classified information is illegal might come from the Espionage Act. In particular, see 18 U.S.C. S. 793(e):

  Whoever having unauthorized possession of, access to, or
  control over any document ... or willfully retains the same
  and fails to deliver it to the officer or employee of the
  United States entitled to receive it ... Shall be fined
  under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or
  both.

  -- https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/793
Notably, unlike clauses (a) through (d) there's no requirement that you intend to harm the U.S. The only mens rea required is knowing your possession is unauthorized.

Now, whatever we think about the constitutionality of the Espionage Act, can you really fault a CNN reporter for presuming it valid. Of course, I doubt any reporter would ever read the text. But it's funny how the further we dig into the facts, the more complex things become. And the notion that he's simply parroting (knowingly or unknowingly) government propaganda, and should have or could have explicated the particular claim in detail, becomes more difficult to sustain. CNN looks better and better, and Hannon worse and worse.

Re: Why the World Needs WikiLeaks

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All they'd need to do is leak a single email, or even a snippet of a single email that was in the relevant date range but not released, and assert that WL had suppressed it. FWIW we also saw HRC and her cronies claiming that the recently released emails were doctored. They made this claim straight-faced and it was cryptographically proven to be completely false. So claims about WL's motivations and actions have thus…

Their motivations are irrelevant. Proving politicians are hypocrites is easier than finding metaphors in the bible. Their releases have undeniably been assimilated by one candidate using WL's credibility and flavor of scandal. WL went along with it. "Troves" don't have signatures. Omissions and context matter. See the ICIJ approach.

> "Troves" don't have signatures. Omissions and context matter. See the ICIJ approach.

Even a single email offered by anyone claiming WL omitted emails would suggest you might be right. None have been offered.

Re: Why the World Needs WikiLeaks

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not true; it's a wild exaggeration, part of the misinformation campaign. Whatever we may think politically, we all can agree that we don't need more of that!

The email in question: https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/6293 For those who don't know the term "Spring" means a fake, externally organized revolution that is seen as legitimate because it aggravates insiders to the cause.

These are all the hallmarks of misinformation campaigns:

1) How do we know the email, provided by Russian intelligence, is real? Do we take Russian intelligence at face value?

> "Spring" means a fake, externally organized revolution that is seen as legitimate because it aggravates insiders to the cause.

2) An unfounded allegation, part of a misinformation campaign: Make enough of them and be angry enough, and A) people seem to bypass the somewhat crucial stage of examining them for truth, and B) because it's much faster and easier to make unsubstantiated allegations than to refute them (it's quick and easy to make things up, hard to find evidence), you can overwhelm the target.

You have little idea what the author was thinking when they wrote words in a casual email (it's not a formal document; it's not the Declaration of Independence). You (or whoever you read) has chosen to apply an extreme meaning to someone else's words, but words have many meanings and can always be taken the wrong way if you want. For example, I could say 'we need to revolutionize Linux kernel management'. Someone could say, 'revolution means violent overthrow - he means to kill the kernel maintainers!'

Spring also refers to a new awakening. It also could refer to the Arab Spring, which wasn't a 'fake, externally organized' revolution. Or it could refer to something that the readers of the email understand between themselves and they used in their private correspondence, but you and I don't. Certainly I say things to associates that could be taken way out of context. One sysadmin I know used to say, about intransigent problems, 'it's time to wave a dead chicken over it'.

Re: Why the World Needs WikiLeaks

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/6293 It's pretty incredible how casually members of the US government and party officials invoke the concept of galvanizing revolutionary movements. There's a concept within the US government that "it's better to convince than to conquer" but there's been a growing awareness and resistance to the emotional abuse that comes from the exhausting onslaught of ideological infil…

The US has been involved in 'Color Revolutions' for a long time. There is evidence that Ukrainian revolution was in part aided by US and EU. George Soros Is also a big player in financing NGOs that work to establish phony social movements. Both Hillary and the DNC are connected to Soros Open Society Foundations. Soros is also funding BLM and other groups that are active in the protests/riots going on.

For those who don't know, that is right out of the Russian propaganda talking points.

Note the complete lack of substantiation; sensational, inflammatory claims have a bizarre way of causing people to stop thinking and asking the question: Is there any credible evidence, or is this just part of the endless BS that fills our world?

Re: Why the World Needs WikiLeaks

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not true; it's a wild exaggeration, part of the misinformation campaign. Whatever we may think politically, we all can agree that we don't need more of that!

Its a very serious intrusion that was denounced by the by American Archbishop Joseph E. Kurtz and others. The front organisations are real and the intent of starting a 'Catholic Spring' was descussed by Podesta and other high ranking DNC officials.

Can you point to evidence of any of this?

Organizing people for a political cause is not a conspiratorial front, it's democracy. That's the fundamental means of participating in it.

Re: Why the World Needs WikiLeaks

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The email in question: https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/6293 For those who don't know the term "Spring" means a fake, externally organized revolution that is seen as legitimate because it aggravates insiders to the cause.

These are all the hallmarks of misinformation campaigns: 1) How do we know the email, provided by Russian intelligence, is real? Do we take Russian intelligence at face value? > "Spring" means a fake, externally organized revolution that is seen as legitimate because it aggravates insiders to the cause. 2) An unfounded allegation, part of a misinformation campaign: Make enough of them and be angry enough, and A) peop…

FUD. Trying to involve conspiracy theories about intelligence agencies. Trying to motivate a list (of two?) "hallmarks" that are neither a list nor hallmarks.

Regarding Spring, the Arab Spring was externally organized. It fed on real desires of real people inside of autocratic regimes.

For another example, take a look at the "Cuban Spring" and Zunzuneo.

In any case, please stop spreading fear, uncertainty and doubt. The internet has enough misinformation and confusion without specific attempts to introduce more.

Re: Why the World Needs WikiLeaks

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has been involved in 'Color Revolutions' for a long time. There is evidence that Ukrainian revolution was in part aided by US and EU. George Soros Is also a big player in financing NGOs that work to establish phony social movements. Both Hillary and the DNC are connected to Soros Open Society Foundations. Soros is also funding BLM and other groups that are active in the protests/riots going on.

For those who don't know, that is right out of the Russian propaganda talking points. Note the complete lack of substantiation; sensational, inflammatory claims have a bizarre way of causing people to stop thinking and asking the question: Is there any credible evidence, or is this just part of the endless BS that fills our world?

I would say that his post is highly corroborated with what I've read from Stratfor and other leaked documents (not through Wikileaks).

Indeed, the CIA have terms for different kinds of propaganda. White propaganda is true things that aide your message. Black propaganda false things that aide your message. Grey in the middle.

This is definitely right out of the Russia "white propaganda" playbook, as the history fully corroborates it.

Re: Why the World Needs WikiLeaks

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its a very serious intrusion that was denounced by the by American Archbishop Joseph E. Kurtz and others. The front organisations are real and the intent of starting a 'Catholic Spring' was descussed by Podesta and other high ranking DNC officials.

Can you point to evidence of any of this? Organizing people for a political cause is not a conspiratorial front, it's democracy. That's the fundamental means of participating in it.

They were trying to incite a moral revolution within the Catholic Church to conform to their own moral standards, but the Catholic Church is not a democracy, the morals and rules are not decided by the collective members of the Catholic Church, which is what makes this move downright unethical.

Re: Why the World Needs WikiLeaks

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you point to evidence of any of this? Organizing people for a political cause is not a conspiratorial front, it's democracy. That's the fundamental means of participating in it.

They were trying to incite a moral revolution within the Catholic Church to conform to their own moral standards, but the Catholic Church is not a democracy, the morals and rules are not decided by the collective members of the Catholic Church, which is what makes this move downright unethical.

The rules are pretty arbitrary, and decided by councils of Bishops though. Trying to influence them, trying to bring the church out of the dark ages, can be seen by some to be laudable.
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