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The Joy of Linux Desktop Environments

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Re: The Joy of Linux Desktop Environments

#171
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linux Mint rocks for ease of setup and use.

Unfortunately Linux Mint does not track security issues or issue security updates. That alone is reason enough to avoid it completely, but then when you add in their server breach and the way they handled it... Stick with Debian and Ubuntu. And more Debian, going forward.

I get security updates pretty soon after they're released on the Debian mailing list, actually. Logging on this morning I have an update for the gstreamer issues.

I use Debian for servers though.

Re: The Joy of Linux Desktop Environments

#172
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What you describe (compiled files in /etc) are system-global default values. You only need those for multi-user environments. Well, I work as a systems administrator... >> I doubt anybody can measure the parsing advantage of a binary format, but the drawbacks are > The performance advantages are massive. The advantages over reading a big unsorted chunk of text, maybe measurable in an isolated benchmark - depending…

> Well, I work as a systems administrator... So do I. You only need that feature if you want to, say, set a default wallpaper for new users or prevent them from changing, and I don't see any issues with they way it's implemented. It's a plain text config which can be deployed using your favorite config management system. You'd just put in a change hook like you'd restart a service after changing its config file. > Wi…

> You'd just put in a change hook like you'd restart a service after changing its config file.

It's not the same. While servers restart on reboot, the config file is not automatically compiled. Also if you don't reboot, most servers are restarted through a uniform interface. Dconf makes an exception without need. You need the dconf infrastructure at deploy time (it might be an installation), and you need to know how to use it.

I've wasted hours figuring out how the configuration is to be used. In the end I still had terrible bugs. I'm glad other programs just do the parsing for me. It works, there never was a problem to begin with.

> The current GTK theme or scaling factor is read all the time during rendering.

I think you are missing the possibility of parsing a configuration once at startup and storing the result in memory in suitable datastructures. It's not like conventional programs would parse the configuration over and over. Fixed binary layouts are very bad for interoperation.

Btw, there is no memory usage problem compared to an mmap solution if every program just parses the _relevant_ information. And it also doesn't preclude a live-update mechanism -- this just has to be done with care. Not every information is trivially live-updatable, as illustrated by the breakage I mentioned.

> I can just set them using "gsettings set org.gnome.desktop.interface.scaling-factor 2"

This can be also done with text configuration files. Some programs do it. Most do it not (including dconf, which doesn't update your original input file) because the tradeoffs are bad. It has nothing to do with the question whether or not the serialization format is text.

Text vs binary is just this question: Do I need absolute performance or absolute discoverability? In the case of configuration files, the answer is clear.

Re: The Joy of Linux Desktop Environments

#173
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> get your DE/WM just the way you want it, you can be more productive Does that ever actually occur? My vimrc changes almost on a daily basis, and I'm frequently changing plugins, writing new tools, and creating new aliases all time time. And that's just for my terminal. Having to repeat some of those modifications 3-4 times because I'm using a slightly different terminal app for each individual task would, I think,…

>Having to repeat some of those modifications 3-4 times because I'm using a slightly different terminal app for each individual task would, I think, drive me batty. I have no idea what you're talking about. What are these "slightly different terminal apps"?

It's a play on switching WMs to handle different tasks. Perhaps not worded the best way.

That said, different terminal emulators do behave differently.

Re: The Joy of Linux Desktop Environments

#174
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's slow to connect, uses a lot of resources and cannot be installed without bringing in hundreds of megabytes of dependencies (e.g. X11, Gnome libs).

> It's slow to connect It connects to my home wifi in > uses a lot of resources 10 MiB and 9 minutes of CPU time after an uptime of 4 days with many reconnects, which is totally reasonable. > cannot be installed without bringing in hundreds of megabytes of dependencies Not true. Even on Ubuntu, it only pulls in 17.4 MB of dependencies: apt-get install --no-install-recommends network-manager The following additional p…

Try installing it on Ubuntu headless server, then it will bring in hundreds of megabytes. You obviously already had most of the dependencies installed. Intel developed Connman because NetworkManagers shortcomings make it unsuitable for embedded devices.

Re: The Joy of Linux Desktop Environments

#175
post #47

I get to experience the joy of not having a desktop environment; of using a bare WM, the shell, and 30-year-old Unix skills to work with my system. It's a good feeling.

I've been going through a similar experience over the last few years, mostly driven by my hardware getting older and not handling the requirements of modern DE's (when I'd prefer the resource to be used for applications). It's nice stripping back to the original structures, though it does feel like computer archaeology sometimes. There's a lot of services in the upper layers that have to be switched off to get back t…

Except I never actually got on board with KDE or GNOME. Command line, .xinitrc, and .Xresources were my jam lo these many years.

When I first tried Linux in the 90s it was already less of a pain than Windows. Why would I want to reinstate all that Windows-like cruft to be at most 0% more productive than I was without it?

Re: The Joy of Linux Desktop Environments

#176

Edit: Can the downvoter explain their reason? My personal favorite is the LXDE / Lubuntu 16.04 setup. All my subjective opinion, of course: - Sits in the sweet spot for bare bones distro vs batteries included. - Without decorations, I have essentially borderless applications, that I can quickly toggle the titlebars etc. - Kept sane keyboard shortcuts and did not remove them for some arbitrary reasons. Here's a random…

Only thing I dislike about Lubuntu is losing Mac keyboard shortcuts and hardware, a lot of them I managed to replicate and even found a (slightly unstable) Alfred alternative called Albert [1]. My Magic Mouse 2 could only work like a dumb mouse. I turned off the tray at the bottom, the window borders and set apps to start full screen, switching between full screen apps was much nicer than what remains after Apple clo…

> My Magic Mouse 2 could only work like a dumb mouse

Last I checked, I thought I saw this was a driver issue, not a DE one? I could be wrong, but I remember coming to the conclusion that it wouldn't work as anything but a dumb mouse at all on Linux (at least, for the time being)

Re: The Joy of Linux Desktop Environments

#177
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's slow to connect It connects to my home wifi in > uses a lot of resources 10 MiB and 9 minutes of CPU time after an uptime of 4 days with many reconnects, which is totally reasonable. > cannot be installed without bringing in hundreds of megabytes of dependencies Not true. Even on Ubuntu, it only pulls in 17.4 MB of dependencies: apt-get install --no-install-recommends network-manager The following additional p…

Try installing it on Ubuntu headless server, then it will bring in hundreds of megabytes. You obviously already had most of the dependencies installed. Intel developed Connman because NetworkManagers shortcomings make it unsuitable for embedded devices.

That was on a headless server, 16.04 cloud image.

It pulls in much more without --no-install-recommends, but you don't need any of those.

Re: The Joy of Linux Desktop Environments

#178
post #108

Although this blog entry is entirely about desktop interfaces, he does mention that > ...Windows, OS X, iOS, and Android, have one common interface... This is true for the first three without significant modification, but it isn't true for Android. One of my favorite things about Android when I had it was the ability to choose a launcher right from the app store. You can completely change your home screen interface w…

I agree mostly, but > on Android, it's just as customizable as a Linux desktop I wouldn't say is true. For android launchers to be functionally equivalent to (or as customizable as) linux DEs, they'd have to be able to customize android's nav bar, pull-down menu, settings app, recents menu, and split screen/tiling/windowing. At the moment, these are all handled at the OS level. Not that android's launcher concept isn…

I agree, the launcher isn't as customizable as a linux desktop. To change the entirety of a linux user interface is much easier on a linux desktop. But nonetheless, Android is still quite customizable, and the other interfaces you mentioned (nav bar, pull down menu, etc) are still customizable if you're able to flash a custom ROM. It's all possible, but desktop Linux is much easier to fiddle around with in that manner.

Nonetheless, I think Android should've been left out of that group in the OP. Not a big deal, but for someone who used to tinker with Android quite a bit, I couldn't resist commenting the point.

Re: The Joy of Linux Desktop Environments

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you aware that the whole of the development resource (people) across the entire free software desktop would fit into a reasonable size conference room? Versus, say the size of the development teams on proprietary systems such as Windows? So, what is the point of trying to divide the community of people all trying to work towards similar(ish) goals - the improvement of the alternative desktops - rather than focusi…

I apologize if I came off as an ass. I was ticked off by Redhat being painted as the BigBadCo and Canonical being painted as the little-guy-who-could. I have the greatest of respect for anyone who has ever contributed a single line to Linux - more than anywhere else, your works really impacts countries like India. I am not sure why there is this impression. I would be lying if I didn't think so myself.

@sandGorgon thanks for apologising, I really appreciate anyone taking a moment to reconsider their underlying assumptions and thinking.

Re: The Joy of Linux Desktop Environments

#180

I recently tried to use Linux (Ubuntu 16.10) as my primary desktop and failed again. I tried yearly since year 2000. But again in late 2016 I switched back to Windows (10) and MacOs. Driver support is getting better but so are my expectations and Linux (well Ubuntu) doesn't seem to catch up fast enough. For instance I failed having my dual graphic cards be used in extended mode with the my native laptop screen and an…

Now this is strange, because I've had exactly the opposite experience with the same hardware. I've gotten both a (Thinkpad) W530 and a P50 working fully (with four monitors!) with their dual-GPU hardware out of the box with Linux Mint 18 (Cinnamon), which is based on Ubuntu 16.04. Incidentally, Windows 10 shit itself with a simple ATI 7990 and the onboard NIC on an Asus motherboard when I tried to install it a couple…

I bought a $360 Thinkpad w520 quad core mostly to see if I could move from linux in VMs to it being a daily driver. That was two weeks ago. I'm amazed at how well it works: this laptop has a nightmare graphics setup (Nvidia Optimus) but it works very well when you pick a card in the bios; the Optimus setup doesn't work very well. On the other hand, it isn't even supported in Windows 10: I tried it anyway, and it keep crashing. Meanwhile, Ubuntu 16.04 is a revelation (I mostly used Linux Mint in the VMs). Fast, very stable, 7 hour battery on integrated graphics, works with one DP monitor (haven't tried two yet, waiting for a docking station to arrive). I use it for development, VMs and RDP, fantastic experience so far. To my amazement, Wine can even run Excel & Word (2010). I have never got Office working in Linux before, this is quite amazing, although ultimately not very useful since it seems to run Windows VMs better than my 2015 i7 mac (which is only dual core), and LibreOffice is almost different software on Linux vs the mac, it's so much better. Ubuntu is really good to use, it's very fast to move around apps and workpaces, great keyboard shortcuts. There are a lot of moving parts but it seems to hang together. Plus my bluetooth magic trackpad worked. So I'm probably going to get an entrylevel quad-core P50 in the next month or two, and sell the macbook; I think I'll finish ahead, so I'll put the change towards a good Chromebook.
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