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SpaceX plans worldwide satellite Internet with low latency, gigabit speed

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Re: SpaceX plans worldwide satellite Internet with low latency, gigabit speed

#291
post #255

This should not be privately owned. It should belong to the entire human race. Otherwise it will be more of the same fallacious drivel that landed us in our current predicament.

If you have a viable model by which the entire human race can plausibly work together to fund and implement this, the rest of us would love to hear it.

There's plenty that's flawed about capitalism, but the thing is that it works better than anything else we've so far thought of for providing actual incentives for people to push the envelope of what's possible and create new things in economically viable ways. If there were some way to equally effectively incentivize regulatory oversight - which we manifestly do not have in existing governmental structures - we'd be in solid shape.

Re: SpaceX plans worldwide satellite Internet with low latency, gigabit speed

#292
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that the US is above average in terms of protection against censorship, but I imagine that if it is an option a lot of people would specifically avoid US ground stations (US is above average in tracking online activity as well).

To some extent we just need something better than https and the various email protocols that we have for securely transmitting data, with built in blinding for sender and reciever. (Only the receiver knows it is a message for them). Stuff should never be in the clear on an intermediary server, and it should be at least resistant to MITM (everything should be signed). It isn't an easy problem. But you can't snoop on a…

The problem is that blinding for sender and receiver is hard to achieve on a route-based mesh.

On the internet you need to know the receiver and sender of a message, otherwise you have no idea where it's going and the best method to from there is to use very inefficient methods.

HTTPS and IMAP over TLS already achieve MITM-resistance, as long as you verify the certificate.

With TLS (and SSL to some extend) you can't snoop on and censor data, not without compromising the sender (assuming you trust their certificate explicitly).

Re: SpaceX plans worldwide satellite Internet with low latency, gigabit speed

#293
post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're equivocating. You said " If the internet stopped people from falling for bullshit, "post-truth" would not have been 'word of the year' for 2016. " which is making a general claim. Whereas now you're implying that you weren't making a general claim about "stopped".

Oh, for fuck's sake, stop being so goddamned literal. Do you also tell people off for calling children "kids", because "kid means young goat"? If you 'stop' corruption, it doesn't mean you 100% eliminate corruption. A journalist can 'stop people in the street' to talk to them, but that doesn't mean that they stand still rather that walk-and-talk. If a parent is able to 'stop' a kid sleeping badly, it doesn't mean the…

My original point stands that the person you were replying to did not make the claim you're implying they did. Your response was to equivocate. Claiming that I'm being too literal isn't addressing your equivocation.

Let me put it another way: in your subsequent replies you are implying that what your original claim meant was "If the internet stopped even just a few people from falling for bullshit, "post-truth" would not have been 'word of the year' for 2016." which is clearly not what you meant (and, BTW, would clearly be a false statement) - hence the equivocation.

Re: SpaceX plans worldwide satellite Internet with low latency, gigabit speed

#294
post #258
post #27

I don't know how they're going to get 25/35ms hops. If they're using low orbits to reduce latency, the surface coverage is going to be lower so they're going to have to mesh them in some way to span large areas. That means routers and intelligence which means uplink, interlink, downlink hops in both directions. 600ms here we come again.

Another thing to consider is that fiber slows down light substantially vs radio and laser comms.

It does indeed. However not as much as processing a signal may do. I'll extrapolate further. I worked indirectly with satellite systems back in the late 1990s. You've got two ways of handling satellite data:

1. Uplink/downlink. This is the most primitive and I understand still the most common. You RX, strip the carrier off, mix it with a new carrier, amplify it and send. There is no intelligence other than the uplink and downlink frequencies. Bandwidth of both of these is pretty wide. Ergo, latency is minimal, power efficiency is high. The satellite doesn't have any idea what the signal means.

2. Decode/retransmit. This you need to RX it, strip the carrier out, demodulate it possibly thousands of channels individually spanning a massive bandwidth, intelligently decide what to do with it while buffering it, mix with one of many new carriers, amplify, retransmit. Latency high, power efficiency low.

The latter requires some serious routing power which isn't necessarily available either cost efficiently or reliably of the shelf. Getting something like that which is rad hardened isn't likey to succeed and you can't just launch three redundant core 2's to do it like Dragon.

Imagine launching a radiation hardened 4G base station. That's a good analogy.

Re: SpaceX plans worldwide satellite Internet with low latency, gigabit speed

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, then that means you're ventilating the output heat poorly. If there is a significant difference in temperature between the coils and the room, you're spending more power than you need to when you pump heat out of the fridge. Adding fins or fans would save you more power than you could ever recover.

I'm keen to pursue this, it's in an enclosed space. We can go from there.

Somewhere on the fridge is a bunch of metal that heats up when it's working. If that gets particularly hot, then you have the potential to save power. You could add more surface area or have low-power fans blow air across it. That would make the actual fridge unit be more efficient. The amount of electricity you would save is much more than the amount you could harvest. Any device that harvests power would also impede the efficiency more and make it work even harder.

But either one would be a pretty small amount.

It's fun as a toy, but not much more.

If you want to save power, buy a more efficient fridge. Maybe also get one where the hot part can go outside.

If you want free power, get solar panels.

Re: SpaceX plans worldwide satellite Internet with low latency, gigabit speed

#296
post #7

Free, global internet access is the next step toward a smarter, more progressive planet. I don't even care about the speed - if the only thing users could access was wikipedia, I'd still personally donate to the project. I cannot emphasize how important democratizing knowledge is to me (and many others).

What if it was only Wikipedia but it was funded by facebook? I mean, hypothetically.

Re: SpaceX plans worldwide satellite Internet with low latency, gigabit speed

#297
post #7

Free, global internet access is the next step toward a smarter, more progressive planet. I don't even care about the speed - if the only thing users could access was wikipedia, I'd still personally donate to the project. I cannot emphasize how important democratizing knowledge is to me (and many others).

What if it was only Wikipedia but it was funded by facebook? I mean, hypothetically.

Re: SpaceX plans worldwide satellite Internet with low latency, gigabit speed

#298
post #232

OK that's it. This is why I need to build a large company and become rich. So I can get all kinds of ideas that I have done, instead of listening to people telling me how hard it would be. They would just get done. http://qbix.com/blog

I outsource idea creation, execution and spending riches to Elon. Frees me up for other more important stuff.

Re: SpaceX plans worldwide satellite Internet with low latency, gigabit speed

#299
post #7

Free, global internet access is the next step toward a smarter, more progressive planet. I don't even care about the speed - if the only thing users could access was wikipedia, I'd still personally donate to the project. I cannot emphasize how important democratizing knowledge is to me (and many others).

What if it was only Wikipedia but it was funded by facebook? I mean, hypothetically.

Re: SpaceX plans worldwide satellite Internet with low latency, gigabit speed

#300
post #160

napkin math (chemistry style): (4425 satellites * 23Gbps) / ((60,000PB of fixed internet traffic / 1 month [1]) * (12 months / 365 days) * (1 day / 24 hours ) * (1 hour / 60 minutes) * (1 minute / 60 seconds) * (8 bits / 1 byte) * (1024 Tera / 1 Peta) * (1024 Tera / 1 Giga)) = An astounding O(54% of global internet traffic) [2]! Obviously there are many many more variables in this [3]. Nonetheless this will be super…

>An astounding O(54% of global internet traffic) [2]!

Thanks for working this out. This matches with Musk's stated goals for the project from January 2015 ("the majority" of internet traffic): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHeZHyOnsm4&t=2m40s

>The focus is going to be on creating a global communications system. This is quite an ambitious effort. We're really talking about something which is... in the long term it will be like rebuilding the internet in space. The goal will be to have the majority of long distance internet traffic go over this network, and about 10% of local and business traffic. Probably 90% of people's local access will still come from fiber, but we'll do about 10% of business and consumer direct, and more than half I think of the long distance traffic.

>As you guys may know, the speed of light in a vacuum is somewhere between 40-50% faster than in fiber. So you can actually do long distance communication faster if you route it through vacuum than you can if you route it through fiber.

>And you can also go through far fewer hops. Let's say if you want to communicate from Seattle to South Africa. If you look at the actual path that it takes it's extremely convoluted[1]. It will follow the outline of the continents. It will go through 200 routers and repeaters, and the latency is extremely bad. Whereas if you did it with a satellite network you could actually do it in two or three hops. Well maybe four hops; it depends on what the altitude of the satellites are, and what the cross-links are.

>Let's say at least an order of magnitude fewer repeaters or routers, and going through space at 50% faster speed of light. So from a physics standpoint it's inherently better to do the long distance internet traffic through space.

[1] https://personalpages.manchester.ac.uk/staff/m.dodge/cyberge...

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