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The Joy of Linux Desktop Environments

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Re: The Joy of Linux Desktop Environments

#151

Post by CaptSpify »

hsitz wrote: post #149
CaptSpify wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll bite: I have to tinker all the time because hw compatibility still sucks. Wifi, sound, video-cards often require tinkering to get them working, especially after upgrading. They are a lot better than they used to be, but they still have a ways to go.

I've had zero driver issues on my Asus UX305 laptop. Even if I had, those issues are generally solved once on installation, not continually tinkered with.

Congratulations I guess?

I've had quite a few computers that didn't have any problems and worked right out of the box. That doesn't mean there aren't still problems with other computers.

Re: The Joy of Linux Desktop Environments

#152

Post by alphapapa »

dhimes wrote: post #131
madamelic wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had the same opinion of Linux as you. I didn't want to tinker with it and get everything working well. Just install Ubuntu. Ignore everyone saying Ubuntu is a kiddy OS ("All you need is X, Y, Z-ix"). Ubuntu is Linux Windows (not really, but it is pretty hard to mess up).

Linux Mint rocks for ease of setup and use.

Unfortunately Linux Mint does not track security issues or issue security updates. That alone is reason enough to avoid it completely, but then when you add in their server breach and the way they handled it...

Stick with Debian and Ubuntu. And more Debian, going forward.

Re: The Joy of Linux Desktop Environments

#153

Post by alphapapa »

habosa wrote: post #135

This year my MacbookPro died (battery exploded). Since I was frustrated with Apple's lack of support for this extreme case and the fact that the new models can't be repaired, I bought an Asus UX305LA and loaded Ubuntu onto it. I have used Ubuntu at work for a few years but this was the first time I went with Linux at home. For the most part, I love it! The whole OS seems to be really light on resources and the UI is…

> Chrome is Chrome...installing Flash player requires a PhD

Huh? Chrome has Flash built-in, and for everything else, just `apt-get install flashplugin-installer`.

Re: The Joy of Linux Desktop Environments

#154

Post by alphapapa »

symlinkk wrote: post #110
nolepointer wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some design choices for GNOME simply escape me. By default, no window buttons (i.e. active windows) on the top panel. By default, no maximize/minimize buttons for windows. Who could possibly find that user-friendly?

> no maximize/minimize buttons for windows why do you use the maximize / minimize buttons? If you're just trying to see a different app, wouldn't alt+tab do the same thing? > no window buttons (i.e. active windows) on the top panel why do you need to see a running list of everything that's open in your face at all times? it seems to me like the only time you should need this information is when you're switching apps.…

> why do you use the maximize / minimize buttons?

To maximize and minimize windows?

> If you're just trying to see a different app, wouldn't alt+tab do the same thing?

Can you alt+tab with a mouse?

> why do you need to see a running list of everything that's open in your face at all times?

A taskbar at the edge of the screen is "in your face"? What if the panel auto-hides?

> it seems to me like the only time you should need this information is when you're switching apps.

And by hiding that information, you add an extra step to the process. The one-step "click on taskbar button" becomes the two-step "activate the window list, click on window button".

> i3 doesn't show you all of the running applications at once either, but no one ever complains about that.

That's because people who use i3 don't want that feature. People who do don't use it.

GNOME used to have it, but threw it away--along with many other features.

Why is it so hard to understand that not everyone uses their computer the same way you do?

Re: The Joy of Linux Desktop Environments

#155

Post by dashingdolphin »

rifung wrote: post #136
eric_bullington wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Perhaps I need to dedicate more time to understanding how things work? Yes, if you don't already, learn basic command line very well, with stderr/stdin/stdout, pipes, sed, grep, find, cat, make, etc. etc. You'll then thrive in Linux, and it will help you with OSX, too.

Oh I already know how to use (most of) those things. What I meant was more that if something on my machine is not working, like a driver or something, I usually have to resort to just copy pasting whatever people tell me to do. I guess what I meant was more that I don't understand how Linux the OS works, not how to work in Linux?

I've been dealing with the same issue. I haven't figured out any real trick to it; the best I can tell, a working Linux system is composed of so many different utilities worked on by so many different people, there's a lot less standardization than what you might expect.

For example, if I do something and it doesn't work, I want to see something that went wrong. This could show up:

1. In stdout/stderr 2. In a logfile specific to that software, somewhere on my computer 3. In an aggregated logfile somewhere on my computer 4. Nowhere, but will do 1, 2, or 3 after you enable something in a config file or cli parameter

This all assumes that if there's something you have to look up (like where it logs files to), you can figure it out based on the man page or website or inspecting your filesystem, and then it actually logs some actionable information on the problem.

I've just come to terms with the fact that everything, no matter how simple it should be, is an ordeal the first time I do it. I just set aside time to research and make notes.

Re: The Joy of Linux Desktop Environments

#156

Post by willtim »

lima wrote: post #127
willtim wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Gnome stack is horrible. I long ago started questioning the sanity of the devs when they tried to build an entire office suite in C. Start any Gnome/GTK app and it will continously spew assertion failed log messages at you. Gnome has also forced certain standards, e.g. Network Manager when superior alternatives exist (the excellent Connman).

> Network Manager What's wrong with Network Manager? Show me any other network manager which handles split DNS, WWAN modems and automatically connecting VPNs out of the box with zero configuration.

It's slow to connect, uses a lot of resources and cannot be installed without bringing in hundreds of megabytes of dependencies (e.g. X11, Gnome libs).

Re: The Joy of Linux Desktop Environments

#157

Post by dashingdolphin »

santaclaus wrote: post #5

I wish one of the major Linux distributions would double down on design as a core priority (as in, bring in designers and give them serious pull). I'd kill for a beautiful, opinionated, and novel Linux desktop environment.

I think this is being attempted, though everyone I've seen is horrendous.

- Graphics designers are not necessarily qualified UI (or "UX") designers - UX designers are not necessarily qualified UX designers - Qualified UX designers are not necessarily qualified designers of an OS UI. Most UX work you can get is essentially applying a few simple principles to yet another implementation of a CRUD app.

I've only seen Linux distros make "design" progress on these fronts:

- Eye candy: making things shake, glow, blink, blah, whatever. This is often pointless, and can exacerbate issues with hardware. - Terrible "modern design" copycatting: making fonts and buttons really huge and interfaces empty with no real clue what someone is going to use it for. KDE Neon's package manager sticks out as a bad offender I saw recently - Out of box setup: releasing something that has all the batteries included. Unfortunately, this also pretty much guarantees: it has software on it you don't need; it has software on it you don't want; it has software on it that will break at some point; understanding and customizing it will be treacherous and nigh impossible.

You can go two ways: make a single/narrow purpose system, or make a general purpose system. Linux is great for single/narrow purpose systems, since it's all pieces you can pick and choose at your will. Of course, that won't work as a general computer.

For a general purpose system, I think we need to stop trying to pretend that it's easy or can work out of the box and start accepting the fact that it's difficult and provide people the tools and documentation to handle it.

Re: The Joy of Linux Desktop Environments

#158

Post by willtim »

lima wrote: post #129
willtim wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experiences are similar, it's not the software that's the biggest problem, I use mostly FOSS anyway. It was the lack of decent hardware support, e.g. Skylake laptop support, Displayport MST, that drove me to Windows 10.

Works fine nowadays, Skylake + 4k MST screen. I was an early adopter and it was a bumpy start for sure, but you expect that. Just wait half a year or so after a new processor generation and it'll be fine. Zero issues on my Haswell laptop for the past years. Intel has full-time people working on the Linux graphics stack. I've contributed bug reports and stack traces and they have been super friendly and responsive.

I wouldn't say it is working fine yet, for example: https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116671 I'm not convinced mobile hardware is supported by them given this bug is still open and Skylake is approaching EOL.

Re: The Joy of Linux Desktop Environments

#159

Post by willtim »

sandGorgon wrote: post #150
willtim wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ubuntu are playing a (very long) game. If they manage it, IMHO they'll be in a better place than Fedora's UI which is built on a stack that increasingly only Redhat will continue to develop.

Just like systemd, Wayland and the kernel right ? Are you aware that Redhat actually employs most of the kernel devs ? Ubuntu does not have the "people's stack" ... It's just another company building a stack that is not as good.

I was specifically talking about the UI. Which is more of a priority for Ubuntu as they are trying to build a desktop OS.
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