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Ask HN: Anyone interested in building tools for showing bias in news?

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Re: Ask HN: Anyone interested in building tools for showing bias in news?

#131

Post by htwillie »

harigov wrote: post #66
lj3 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's hard to pull people away from their news sources to something unbiased. We need to take unbiased articles to the people. > I am not interested in unbiased news sources. So, which is it? I think the focus on bias vs unbiased news sources is a distraction. ALL news is biased. That is something that will never change. > If others cannot understand our opinion What if the issue here is that others understand your…

Good catch regarding the biased/unbiased. Parent to that post pointed out that there is a news source that tries to show unbiased news. I was implying that we need to take such news sources to people, rather than expecting them to get to that on their own. As I mentioned elsewhere, the idea is not to show unbiased news but rather show other side of the news (in the bias spectrum). I am not entirely clear on what make…

The best "tool" available is the No Agenda Podcast.

Hosts Adam and John present national and global issues as portrayed by mass media, and systematically DECONSTRUCT the stories. They not only highlight biases, but explore propagandistic elements and discuss how the media intentionally affects the consumers.

Most importantly, they work to identify the MOTIVATIONS for medias' biases in the first place, and demonstrate for their listeners how to be much more critical, skeptical, and analytical in the way they consume the news.

Listen to a few episodes and you might rethink the need for building a tool at all.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone interested in building tools for showing bias in news?

#133

Post by masondixon »

hga wrote: post #113
masondixon wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read the article. Most people acknowledge the benefits of multiculturalism and enjoy it. Art, music, food, festivals, etc. People enjoy relationships with immigrants because they bring a different perspective. NYC is the best case of this. A true melting pot. Economies need immigrants for GDP growth. Its a win-win. Integration is key though. And because we enjoy the benefits, it is our responsibility. Controlled im…

I read the article. It wasn't an article, it was a political speech, per the title and the single introductory paragraph that wasn't his words, and therefore subject to constraints that make some of your complaints irrelevant, like the single anecdote. Integration is key though. You mean like the famed US "melting pot"? That concept is stone cold dead, your "integration" is most assuredly not happening.

Yes I know it was a speech.

There is always a clash amongst cultures. But the alt-right's thesis is that it is related to immigrants.

Instead of making a case against immigrants by taking one example after the next of integration problems, you need to generalise your claims to ensure that they are consistent. Without requiring consistency of argument, you can basically claim anything you like.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone interested in building tools for showing bias in news?

#134

Post by masondixon »

judahmeek wrote: post #119
hga wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read the article. It wasn't an article, it was a political speech, per the title and the single introductory paragraph that wasn't his words, and therefore subject to constraints that make some of your complaints irrelevant, like the single anecdote. Integration is key though. You mean like the famed US "melting pot"? That concept is stone cold dead, your "integration" is most assuredly not happening.

Except that many generations of immigrants have successfully integrated. Besides European immigrants, Asian immigrants on the West Coast have integrated amazingly well. Latinos have also integrated nicely, although it's harder to tell because we have so many fresh immigrants. Cultural integration is a multigenerational process, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

Agree.

I think the issue is that people have different perspectives on integration.

Some people see it, others don't.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone interested in building tools for showing bias in news?

#135

Post by hga »

masondixon wrote: post #133
hga wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read the article. It wasn't an article, it was a political speech, per the title and the single introductory paragraph that wasn't his words, and therefore subject to constraints that make some of your complaints irrelevant, like the single anecdote. Integration is key though. You mean like the famed US "melting pot"? That concept is stone cold dead, your "integration" is most assuredly not happening.

Yes I know it was a speech. There is always a clash amongst cultures. But the alt-right's thesis is that it is related to immigrants. Instead of making a case against immigrants by taking one example after the next of integration problems, you need to generalise your claims to ensure that they are consistent. Without requiring consistency of argument, you can basically claim anything you like.

There is always a clash amongst cultures. But the alt-right's thesis is that it is related to immigrants.

Is that it includes immigrants; we certainly don't exclude the other obvious clashes (Syria is the current awful example), but it's the immigrants in the US and Europe that are among the most important right now.

As for your latter point, I'm only here to explain what I've gathered about what the Alt Right is about, not necessarily to explain it beyond that, and while I don't claim its views immigration are inconsistent, a high level of consistency is certainly a bit much to ask this early in the formation of its philosophy, that's very much a work in progress.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone interested in building tools for showing bias in news?

#136

Post by hga »

judahmeek wrote: post #119
hga wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read the article. It wasn't an article, it was a political speech, per the title and the single introductory paragraph that wasn't his words, and therefore subject to constraints that make some of your complaints irrelevant, like the single anecdote. Integration is key though. You mean like the famed US "melting pot"? That concept is stone cold dead, your "integration" is most assuredly not happening.

Except that many generations of immigrants have successfully integrated. Besides European immigrants, Asian immigrants on the West Coast have integrated amazingly well. Latinos have also integrated nicely, although it's harder to tell because we have so many fresh immigrants. Cultural integration is a multigenerational process, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

Except that many generations of immigrants have successfully integrated.

Echoing masondixon's reply, we on the Alt Right disagree, starting possibly as far back as the Irish immigrants who played a variety of significant roles in the Civil War, e.g. the NYC draft riots. For a stark example of that quite a bit later, in the 20th Century, see the Curley effect: https://www.google.com/search?q=the+curley+effect It's anything but integration, or good for the Republic, society at large, etc. especially as its paradigm of identity politics was followed by other groups.

I think a lot of the Left's freak out over the election of Trump as well as the rise of the Alt Right is that, having first opened the bottle of identity politics and used it to great effect, they're genuinely and legitimately frightened that the genie they've unleashed is not under their control, and that "whites" are starting to enter the game.

Especially since, per Vox Day, identity trumps culture, which the Left has captured, which trumps politics, where the Left has been in fact winning (forget the labels and much of the rhetoric, look at actions) due to the establishment right/GOPe accepting its definitions of reality, rules of the game, and all that.

Trump very noticeably does not accept the Left's rules on how the game of politics are to be played, as we're seeing in now ludicrous examples like that family steak dinner.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone interested in building tools for showing bias in news?

#137

Post by hga »

qwrusz wrote: post #117

A different or supplementary approach could be removing the bias from a news item. Instead of trying to determine which biased side an article is skewed towards and then finding other links to what is determined to be the "alternative view". Scrubbing bias or at least highlighting it is already helpful. For example: at work we get daily emailed briefs with major business news items summarized to ~3-5 bullet points of…

What if the bias was created by omitting important facts that, for example, contradict the narrative of the item.

Sports are indeed a good domain for what you're talking about, but that's because they're run by well known rules, it's a highly artificial domain, not directly including the messiness of general human affairs (except in that they're played, refereed, managed etc. by humans).

Business ... well, how many stories about Yahoo! have ignored its negative market net worth when its Alibaba stake is removed, when that was relevant? Not necessarily examples of bias, but....

Re: Ask HN: Anyone interested in building tools for showing bias in news?

#138

Post by judahmeek »

hga wrote: post #136
judahmeek wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that many generations of immigrants have successfully integrated. Besides European immigrants, Asian immigrants on the West Coast have integrated amazingly well. Latinos have also integrated nicely, although it's harder to tell because we have so many fresh immigrants. Cultural integration is a multigenerational process, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

Except that many generations of immigrants have successfully integrated. Echoing masondixon's reply, we on the Alt Right disagree, starting possibly as far back as the Irish immigrants who played a variety of significant roles in the Civil War, e.g. the NYC draft riots. For a stark example of that quite a bit later, in the 20th Century, see the Curley effect: https://www.google.com/search?q=the+curley+effect It's any…

But where are those Irish who lived under Curley now? Have they not integrated?

In America, manifestations of the Curley Effect are far more likely to come from class warfare or political ideology (such as abortion, LBGTQ rights, etc) than from ethnic diversity.

I agree that white use of identity politics does concern the Left... because identity politics developed to promote minorities and underrepresented communities. That whites feel the need to act like a minority group is disturbing considering the economic and political power that we obviously weld.

Identity politics, by its very nature, promotes a "my group first" mentality. The Left justifies its use by underrepresented minorities as a way to promote their interests and improve their quality of life. It's why blacks in the 1960 were demanding the right to vote, rather than protesting for or against the Vietnam War. The idea is that this will eventually lead to a more level economic and political playing field. However, if even the most privileged demographic groups engage in identity politics, then economic and political inequality will likely either be maintained or be exacerbated through tyranny of the majority.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone interested in building tools for showing bias in news?

#139

Post by Chris2048 »

pizza wrote: post #118
cwisecarver wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIRC one of the main tenants of science, when I was learning it in middle school in the early '90s, was that it's fact until it's disproven. We don't know everything about it which is what makes it different than religion. There's no faith involved. I know a lot of it is corrupt and aiming for a target but good scientists will tell you that they're basing their findings on studies which may have flaws and they'd want…

This is what falsifiability is all about in science. Mathematics relies upon proofs, but there is no such thing as a scientific proof.. You can find sufficient conditions for a phenomenon and have a wholly water-tight argument as to why it occurs, but you can't use use observation to find necessary condition. This is because observations are evidence, and if a future observation shows problems with your theory, you s…

I'm not sure this is True, as you can use probabilistic arguments.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone interested in building tools for showing bias in news?

#140

Post by Chris2048 »

splawn wrote: post #114
551199 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure but what if it was never a fact. 'Fat makes you fat' or similar falsification that have real impact to society[0] We shouldn't attribute everything to malice, but there are clear issues in science: 'Too many of the findings that fill the academic either are the result of shoddy experiments or poor analysis Last year researchers at one biotech firm, Amgen, found they could reproduce just six of 53 “landmark” stud…

Despite all of your examples, science is still the best way we have for understanding the universe. If you have a better way then by all means enlighten us.

OP posts about the current state of science, A better way of doing science is needed.
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