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Ask HN: Anyone interested in building tools for showing bias in news?

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Re: Ask HN: Anyone interested in building tools for showing bias in news?

#61

Post by lj3 »

harigov wrote: post #4
wyldfire wrote: post #2

I think the idea is promising but I'm pessimistic that those who need it most would opt-in. It sounds like a valuable project: good luck.

Thanks. It is clear that most organizations don't want to invest effort in doing what is right. If there is some ready-to-use extension/service that is proven to help, maybe we can convince the browser developers to include it in their default installation.

That's a dangerous idea. You seem convinced that you're right and other people are wrong. So much so that you want to force this idea of right and wrong on people by installing it in their browser by default?! This smacks of soviet era re-education.

> maybe we can convince the browser developers to include it in their default installation.

Any browser that decided to do this would quickly find themselves out of business. Free will exists for a reason. Attempt to circumvent it at your own peril.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone interested in building tools for showing bias in news?

#62

Post by grzm »

gsnedders wrote: post #58
rando9000 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious how you think this would work. First of all, I'm interested in what you think a news publication free of bias would look like. Would it be a straight recitation of factual occurrences? That would be useless, right? How would you decide which story gets a big headline? Which detail gets included? Second, the USA Right in general has completely broken with the idea that there is any such thing as "fact" tha…

This. A thousand times this. Bias is an inherent part of language, and we cannot eliminate it, because bias is inherent in both what is said and what isn't said. Even beyond a simple textual level, you have to arrange content somehow, and that in and of itself is subject to bias. What do you put linked to direct from the home page? Do you entirely forego headlines? If so, what do your links on your home page say? All…

"Bias is an inherent part of language"

It's stronger than this. Bias is an inherent part of human psychology.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone interested in building tools for showing bias in news?

#63

Post by beachy »

wyldfire wrote: post #2

I think the idea is promising but I'm pessimistic that those who need it most would opt-in. It sounds like a valuable project: good luck.

Good luck indeed.

But it sounds like a technical solution to a human problem.

I reckon there are two camps - people who are skeptical, analytical and self-moderate the news that they receive, and people who love living inside their bubble, and positively don't want to hear contrasting worldviews.

Not sure why the latter would ever want to install a browser extension that challenged their views.

Facebook on the other hand - if they took the filter problem more seriously - that could make a real difference.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone interested in building tools for showing bias in news?

#64

Post by larubbio »

I had thought about something like this a couple of years ago. My idea wasn't really about tracking bias, but providing reputation for authors and news outlets. Users (via a browser plugin or some other mechanism) could declare an article or statement as biased in a certain direction. That vote would give me information about the article, the news outlet and the reader. I could then present that information back to users. In this way I could learn just how biased I am (and maybe even the areas of my bias) and the bias of authors and organizations. Perhaps you could see how an author's bias changes when they write for different sites.

However I don't think just pointing out bias will really help. People like their bubbles, and moving out of them is painful and potentially with real world consequences for them. I also think if you show a user an articles bias ahead of time, it will just be used as a filter or a way to reinforce their bubble. I thought this article was interesting.

http://www.vox.com/2014/4/6/5556462/brain-dead-how-politics-...

Re: Ask HN: Anyone interested in building tools for showing bias in news?

#65

Post by pinetop »

I recently began working on a (somewhat) related NLP project looking at the shift in sentiment in Trump-focused articles published pre- and post- election. The motivation for the project is the observation that many of the left-leaning news media outlets - who consistently lambasted Trump in the lead-up to the US election - have begun to dial back their criticism post election, presumably in an attempt to (re)build bridges and ensure their continued relevance in the ensuing Trump milieu. It seems that the results of such an analysis have the potential to be a concrete and relatively simple example of the deviation from any stable media narrative, and perhaps a nice opportunity to spread this message to a slightly wider audience.

The project is nascent, but it should be straightforward to implement (I have already begun to amass articles from several major news sources). While this may or may not be relevant to your stated goal, I'd be happy to share more info if you're interested!

Re: Ask HN: Anyone interested in building tools for showing bias in news?

#66

Post by harigov »

lj3 wrote: post #56
harigov wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not interested in unbiased news sources. I am interested in showing alternately biased news source so that you can develop your own opinion. Even showing snippets of alternate views superposed on the same article can help people a bit. My aim is not to solve the problem in its entirety. If others cannot understand our opinion, we should at least try to understand theirs. The current situation is horrible in term…

> it's hard to pull people away from their news sources to something unbiased. We need to take unbiased articles to the people. > I am not interested in unbiased news sources. So, which is it? I think the focus on bias vs unbiased news sources is a distraction. ALL news is biased. That is something that will never change. > If others cannot understand our opinion What if the issue here is that others understand your…

Good catch regarding the biased/unbiased. Parent to that post pointed out that there is a news source that tries to show unbiased news. I was implying that we need to take such news sources to people, rather than expecting them to get to that on their own. As I mentioned elsewhere, the idea is not to show unbiased news but rather show other side of the news (in the bias spectrum). I am not entirely clear on what makes the most sense, which is why I posted it here.

I don't have any claims on people not agreeing with me. I have claims on me not understanding what's going on. I think if such a tool as I proposed existed, I would be happy to use it.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone interested in building tools for showing bias in news?

#67

Post by harigov »

pinetop wrote: post #65

I recently began working on a (somewhat) related NLP project looking at the shift in sentiment in Trump-focused articles published pre- and post- election. The motivation for the project is the observation that many of the left-leaning news media outlets - who consistently lambasted Trump in the lead-up to the US election - have begun to dial back their criticism post election, presumably in an attempt to (re)build b…

I am definitely interested. I will include you in the project group.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone interested in building tools for showing bias in news?

#68

Post by moduspol »

gsnedders wrote: post #58
rando9000 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious how you think this would work. First of all, I'm interested in what you think a news publication free of bias would look like. Would it be a straight recitation of factual occurrences? That would be useless, right? How would you decide which story gets a big headline? Which detail gets included? Second, the USA Right in general has completely broken with the idea that there is any such thing as "fact" tha…

This. A thousand times this. Bias is an inherent part of language, and we cannot eliminate it, because bias is inherent in both what is said and what isn't said. Even beyond a simple textual level, you have to arrange content somehow, and that in and of itself is subject to bias. What do you put linked to direct from the home page? Do you entirely forego headlines? If so, what do your links on your home page say? All…

> 2 Trump Picks: an Insider and a Firebrand (NYT, 14 Nov)

The headline uses the word "Insider" as part of the narrative that Trump is breaking his promise in terms of "draining the swamp," "the system is rigged," etc. The reality is that few expected him to choose only non-politicians in his cabinet and he didn't say he wouldn't have any, but the media has portrayed this as some huge turn of events.

It's biased because it spins a narrative that doesn't actually exist.

> Trump Draws Criticism for Far-Right Pick (NYT, 14 Nov)

How often do you see the New York Times brand anything as "Far-Left"? It may be fair to call a pick "Far-Right," but if you have to be left of Bernie Sanders to be "Far-Left," it's not really fair.

> Trump makes controversial pick for senior aide (AP, 14 Nov)

This is reasonable. He is controversial.

> Trump Taps Reince Priebus as Chief of Staff, Steve Bannon as Chief Strategist (NPR, 14 Nov)

This one is just facts, too.

> Trump names nationalist as senior aide

Why is the label necessary? If he had picked Bernie Sanders, would "Trump names socialist as senior aide" be unbiased?

Re: Ask HN: Anyone interested in building tools for showing bias in news?

#69

Post by harigov »

lj3 wrote: post #61
harigov wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks. It is clear that most organizations don't want to invest effort in doing what is right. If there is some ready-to-use extension/service that is proven to help, maybe we can convince the browser developers to include it in their default installation.

That's a dangerous idea. You seem convinced that you're right and other people are wrong. So much so that you want to force this idea of right and wrong on people by installing it in their browser by default?! This smacks of soviet era re-education. > maybe we can convince the browser developers to include it in their default installation. Any browser that decided to do this would quickly find themselves out of busin…

I am not sure if we are talking about the same thing. I am not talking about right and wrong. I am talking about someone's opinion and alternate opinions.

Re: Ask HN: Anyone interested in building tools for showing bias in news?

#70

Post by nogbit »

garysieling wrote: post #55
michaelbuckbee wrote: post #37

I'm concerned that your frame for this might be off as I don't think the "filter bubble" is rational opposing viewpoints around a particular topic so much as there just being so much misinformation and plain weirdness out there. There's a saying about it being 10x harder to refute bullshit than it is to spew it. How do we in the information and technology wing of society build tools to deal with that? Alex Jones had…

There is a recent trend in the higher quality side of long-form articles to including primary source materials (videos, documents from trials, etc) in articles, but it's a lot of work.

"it's a lot of work"....of course it is, as it should be! Throwing wordpress postings at the wall to see if a headline will stick is trash journalism...from all sides.
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