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Re: undefined

#61

Post by tunap » Wed, Nov 16, 2016, 7:54 PM UTC

lujim wrote: post #57

tunap wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Substituting one drug for another to treat a psychological or behavioral deficiency has been a popular prescription for a long time, and reciditivism has prevailed in a majority of cases, upwards of 90 percentile in alcohol and opiate abusers. JGI if you need sources, though those numbers are actively obfuscated to serve the practitioners, pharmas & lawmakers' self-interests; my knowledge comes from shared 1st hand e…

Sorry I'm not a mental health professional or a physician and had to google "reciditivism" which appears to be a reversion into criminal behavior which is maybe a fancy word for relapse I guess. You are saying that medicine used to treat psychological or behavior deficiencies is of little or no value? Don't you think the shared knowledge of acquaintances is kind of anecdotal? If we are using anecdotes then I would ad…

I didn'y say pharmaceuticals are of little or no value, I said recidivist rates for alcohol & opium addiction are upwards of 90%. If a chemical imbalance causes harmful behaviors, then yes, pharmacology can be a lifesaver. My experience is admittedly anecdotal and should not be taken any other way. People who deal with addicts regularly(doctors, LEOs, therapists and family members) will have their own anecdotes, and together they form a pattern which, IMO, is swapping one drug for another isn't the panacea drug makers and their lobbyists would have us believe. There was a long discussion about an Asian weed the DEA made schdule 1 recently despite it not meeting any of the criteria. It is the opinion of many professionals that it IS a good instance of swapping one drug for another in opiate addicts, much like Chantix worked for your nic habit.

Good for you on quitting the cigs. If I may inquire, how long did you take it? Did it work the 1st time? Any disturbing imagery or dreams? I am genuinely curious, as I am a nicotine junky myself.

Re: undefined

#62

Post by jfoutz » Wed, Nov 16, 2016, 7:54 PM UTC

tunap wrote: post #49

itsmemattchung wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for sharing—my family was ripped apart due to my father's unbridled gambling. Although it's conceivable that casinos play their part in motivating people to gamble, much of the addiction is a battle within the individuals.

Absolutely an individual choice. Why someone chooses to continue to detriment is an infinte pool of rationalizations. I did it for the entertainment & group inclusion(poker). I justified it as I didn't lose $200, I paid for several(sometimes many) hours of entertainment. Then one time I ran out of time while I was up several hundred. The next time was again time constrained and I walked w/ $700.* The last time I met…

funny thing about addiction. I agree that in the beginning it's a choice. But i think every event biases the choice a little bit. So, if it's go to the movies or go gambling, the first time around it's a 50/50 split. then next time around it's a 40/60 split, the next time around 20/80 split. Clearly the rate of bias modification curves vary from person to person.

That, in and of itself isn't bad, nothing wrong with always picking gambling when you have some free time and money.

With addiction, of any kind, it kind of creeps past the point of free time and money. Preferring X over sleep, work, food, whatever other things are important is where it gets pretty rough for people.

So anyway, yeah, there's an element of personal choice. When the biases get so strong, it's hard to recognize that a choice is even being made. People don't exactly choose to brush their teeth in the morning, it's just something that happens as part of the morning routine. It's technically a choice, but the bias is so strong, people rarely consider not brushing their teeth. (as a somewhat silly example)

Re: undefined

#63

Post by l33tbro » Wed, Nov 16, 2016, 7:56 PM UTC

Not trying to be edgy, but it strikes me as odd that, once you remove the obvious historic legacy and economic benefits to government, problem gambling is legal in 2016, but recreational drugs are not.

Re: undefined

#64

Post by digler999 » Wed, Nov 16, 2016, 7:56 PM UTC

kirykl wrote: post #35

digler999 wrote: post #23

I've worked at 3 gaming manufacturers including implementing the payout table. Near misses were never coded into the design. If they did occur, they were consequences of the way the reels were physically laid out. That choice was made from an excel sheet that outlines how many types of each award were expected. The primary statistics the mathematicians cared about were volatility (std deviation) and hold percentage.…

Examples of a near miss that are indeed part of the design: - third wheel spins that change visuals/audio to enhance anticipation of landing that last needed symbol - symbols that look very close to eachother - symbols that appear to be stopping then move at the last moment - bonus wheels with false probabilities, or fake-out stops at high value slices - pre-determined picking on features

Do you think there is a difference between a probabilistic near-miss - say, being dealt 4/5 cards to a royal - and a machine that already decided you lost and in attempt to tempt you, grabs 4/5 to a royal and shows them to you knowing full well you wont win ?

Re: undefined

#65

Post by oxide » Wed, Nov 16, 2016, 7:59 PM UTC

l33tbro wrote: post #63

Not trying to be edgy, but it strikes me as odd that, once you remove the obvious historic legacy and economic benefits to government, problem gambling is legal in 2016, but recreational drugs are not.

since recreational drugs make gambling that much more fun, you'd think casinos would be lobbying for legalization.

Re: undefined

#66

Post by phillc73 » Wed, Nov 16, 2016, 7:59 PM UTC

tomjen3 wrote: post #38

ikeboy wrote: post #22

I wouldn't be against a law that prevented people from gambling large amounts of money unless they could prove the money was theirs. (ETA: whew, a quadruple negative.) The IRS could provide a form that confirmed that someone reported X amount of income, and you should only be allowed to gamble X-Y for some nominal value of Y. This wouldn't be that hard to enforce (the time isn't too significant when you're dealing wi…

I have a huge horse in this fight, because I work for an online casino/slot machine manufacture. The following is my opinion, bl.a I know at least one physical casino where the tax authorities are very happy looking the other way, as patrons gamble tons of dirty cash. They do look very intently on the income and track it carefully because there is a percentage fee on gambling. Presumably that is why people are allowe…

> I don't know any country that has a limit on how much alcohol you can buy at a time (most have age restrictions, some have time and place restrictions, some won't sell you if you are already drunk),

Similar, but different, the UK does restrict the amount of non-prescription pain killers you can buy. I once tried to buy five packets of Nurofen (Ibuprofen) from a supermarket and was restricted to just two packets. I simply went to the next supermarket up the road and bought two more packets.

If there was a limit on how much alcohol people could buy at one time, wouldn't they just do the same thing?

Re: undefined

#67

Post by gwern » Wed, Nov 16, 2016, 7:59 PM UTC

mikestew wrote: post #30

gambiting wrote: post #3

"and lost all of a $110,000 personal loan he’d taken out from PNC Bank." The man had no job, maxed out credit card, and a bank gave him a loan of 110k? Am I crazy to think this is insane on the bank's behalf?

My guess is that he took an equity loan on the house. Based on their website, PNC looks to be like most other banks as far as business model and services offered, so a plain ol' home equity line of credit makes the most sense.

He might also have been running off his past credit score. He was making 6-figures for decades, spending heavily on presumably his credit card, and always paid his bills. If the bank doesn't see the embezzled funds he was spending (and why would they when the funds belonged to the company), he probably looked like a great credit risk: a high-flying executive with a long sterling history who would no doubt get another great job after a few months of negotiation and had plenty of assets.

Re: undefined

#68

Post by digler999 » Wed, Nov 16, 2016, 8:03 PM UTC

yarou wrote: post #21

lujim wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read that the way gambling engages the dopaminergic system in gambling addicts is more akin to physical addictions like alcohol, tobacco, or opiates. So maybe a better analogy would be "in the same way freely available opiates would enable drug addicts". There often seems to be a sentiment of "Why congratulate a recovering alcoholic? I've never had a drinking problem so why isn't someone congratulating me." from…

The vast majority of opiates, substituted amphetamines, and cocaine were available OTC for a myriad of ailments. Many Vietnam veterans were treated in hospitals with heroin, yet they didn't become addicted. What it boils down to is that the addict is unable to achieve homeostasis with their environment. Unfulfilling relationships (both romantic and platonic), financial burdens, lack of a job, lack of intimacy all con…

> It's easy to blame a particular molecule for ruining someone's life. It's less easy to blame a system that turns men into machines.

maybe it's not the "system" but the success of the system that is to blame ? All the homeless, impoverished, 3rd-world people dont have time to get addicted to things because they're trying to eat! I almost want to agree with you that its the unnatural constraints that capitalism puts us under. But at the end of the day, we as Westerners generally have money to buy dope/gamble/drink etc. The only place that money comes from is our collective prosperity. I say it's our collective prosperity that enables us to gorge ourselves on whatever vices we prefer. Look at how many celebrities implode because they have the money to buy whatever pleasure-substances they want.

Re: undefined

#69

Post by tunap » Wed, Nov 16, 2016, 8:06 PM UTC

jfoutz wrote: post #62

tunap wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely an individual choice. Why someone chooses to continue to detriment is an infinte pool of rationalizations. I did it for the entertainment & group inclusion(poker). I justified it as I didn't lose $200, I paid for several(sometimes many) hours of entertainment. Then one time I ran out of time while I was up several hundred. The next time was again time constrained and I walked w/ $700.* The last time I met…

funny thing about addiction. I agree that in the beginning it's a choice. But i think every event biases the choice a little bit. So, if it's go to the movies or go gambling, the first time around it's a 50/50 split. then next time around it's a 40/60 split, the next time around 20/80 split. Clearly the rate of bias modification curves vary from person to person. That, in and of itself isn't bad, nothing wrong with a…

Good thing toothpaste isn't addictive... hope the Crest folk aren't reading this. Very good point, though. I was lucky, I had several positive experiences in a short time period and could rationalize my decision to desist. I have failed repeatedly to mirror that experience with my other addictions, cigs and sex. *

* More so than just getting a lot, I was missing work, foregoing important events and losing sleep to engage with any woman who gave me permission. Aging & perpetual lack of funds cured that one for me, although it is always on my mind. I can not credit that to any personal strength.

edit:reword last sentences and fix *s

Re: undefined

#70

Post by mikestew » Wed, Nov 16, 2016, 8:08 PM UTC

JasonSage wrote: post #54

I see a lot of parallels between gambling and video games, specifically in how video game reward mechanisms resemble gambling with the way the brain responds to intense situations and risk/reward scenarios—simply put, you can get quite a rush from either, and there's an entire industry built up around both to profit from this. I'd love to see a thorough comparison between these two. I think there's a lot of room to e…

I'd love to see a thorough comparison between these two.

Oh, I think you'd find parallels with a lot of things beyond just games and gambling. I say that because I've recently recognized in myself a few of those parallels. Take the mandolin that I've taken up in the last couple of years (having played other stringed instruments for decades). Though not a formal study or anything, I see the same kinds of feelings when I nail a difficult riff as I do when I finally beat that final boss in BioShockingGrandAutoDuty. The difference is that it might take a few years before one gets to that "nail the riff" state on an instrument, whereas a slot machine and CallOfBattleHalo have very low bars.

I can even see some addictive qualities (for my personality, at least). When I've got a tune that I've been working on rattling around in my head, I find that there are times that I have a...compulsion?...to get my fingers on a fretboard and try a different approach or a different fingering. Hard to describe, but it very much parallels what it's like when I've got a new game and am itching to get home and play it.

The difference is, of course, that few people complain when you've gotten really damned good on that instrument and I imagine very few people have lost their house because they play their mandolin too much (though some might lose their house because they thought music was a viable career). So we probably just don't give it much thought beyond those behaviors that are easily demonstrated to be destructive.