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Kids Win the Right to Sue the US Government Over Climate Change

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Re: Kids Win the Right to Sue the US Government Over Climate Change

#51
post #18
post #15

I am surprised by the very negative ton of the first 10+ comments. These kids are not kids any more. They are between 15 and 20. As a reminder, Lafayette was 16. They see an issue and act on it with the tools they have. When you have an issue with a piece of software, you look at the alternatives and possibly you act on the issue, you fix it. They do what you do as designer/software developer, just in another field.…

>but if this is the only solution, why not? It's not the only solution, and government didn't create it. People are causing global warming, not government. It's people who decide to use cars and get stuck in traffic instead taking a bus, bus will go that route anyway, people in cars will cause more traffic and generate more pollution. People who don't turn off lights (also TVs, computers) at their homes over night. I…

The Public Trust Doctrine describes the issue. But it must be recognized that the Government comprises and represents us, otherwise there may be a problem understanding their authority, to act in our name. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_trust_doctrine

Re: Kids Win the Right to Sue the US Government Over Climate Change

#52

A carbon tax initiative was on the ballot in (very blue) Washington State, but sadly went down in flames. Which is strange considering how blue the state is. A carbon tax is one of the best ways to address CO2 pollution.

This. A carbon tax avoids creating a million regulations for every place where we could save energy, because companies who spend too much carbon will just have fewer money to keep going, and you'd just have to compare the price of things to know which ones are less ecologic. Besides, the tax can be used for ecologic projects, or can be used to reduce other taxes.

But every time I try to explain it in France, I'm answered "But you don't realize! Poor people won't be able to afford a car or meat and they'll be the first ones to go bankrupt!". Which is why I say: Fusionning socialism and ecology in France, where all ecologist groups are leftish, badly hurts their work. A right-wing ecology who isn't adverse to capitalism would come up with a CO2 tax with success and actually do something against global warming.

Re: Kids Win the Right to Sue the US Government Over Climate Change

#53
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So let's sue government for rapist and murderers to end it?

If the government were not enforcing existing laws against rape and murder, damn right there would be lawsuits.

Or if the government was allowing the laws to prevent rape and murder to be written by lobbyists for rapists and murderers.

Re: Kids Win the Right to Sue the US Government Over Climate Change

#54
post #40

It makes me worry when people think that "Government" is something unrelated to people, like it was an alien structure that just arrived in his country. In democracies, I mean. Because, you know, it's weird to complain or sue every time that the government doesn't make something you wanted. Because in few years people have the power to elect another set of representatives.

> it's weird to complain or sue every time that the government doesn't make something you wanted. Because in few years people have the power to elect another set of representatives. You're correct if the government rules/laws are all made by the representatives. But a substantial amount of regulation is established or defined in detail by non-elected government employees. So, in many cases, waiting for a change in re…

> electing the "right" set of congresspeople should fix that, but it hasn't

It's much more likely that we haven't elected the right set than it is that the right set is utterly incapable of doing their job.

> We've now 2 congressional elections since the first Snowden revelations and congress still seems to be generally in support of the surveillance.

If the issue were important enough to the majority of people then being in favor of this would make it very hard to get elected, as would being unwilling to pass laws outlawing it.

Re: Kids Win the Right to Sue the US Government Over Climate Change

#55
post #21

I am glad kids are taking action rather than just complaining, however, people can take personal action. The money for any pay out from a suit will most likely come from their future social benefits rather than the industries they are suing. Some personal choices to take action on: Buy local produce, and let your local supermarket or grocer know this. Educate others. It saves on all of the transport emissions from ai…

> people can take personal action

They can, but it won't help. Just watch Mythbusters to understand that things you don't consume will be consumed by someone else. When we need to divide our emissions by 10, people who make an effort won't offset people who don't.

Carpooling won't help enough. Economy cars won't help. Renewable heating won't help. Wind turbines won't help. All of that together will never even divide your consumption by 2, plus since we save money by using less energy, we have more money available that we spend on other carbon-emitting products. We need everyone to take action, so that the ecologist worker isn't disadvantaged in his life compared to the meat/petrol/flight/wasteful worker. Let's look at the numbers:

- Nature absorbs 3GtC per year [1] (Giga-tons of carbon. 1t of Carbon = 3.7t of CO2).

- We'll be 9 billion people on Earth in 2050, so each human can emit 0.333tC per year (or 1.23t of CO2). The argument that some (USA) consume more than others (Philippines) is offset by the facts that the development of most poor countries is soaring (hear: China will access the consumer market just like USA) and the poor also use inefficient and polluting processes.

- So our goal is 1.23t of CO2 (=0.333t of carbon) per person per year. We emit 22t of CO2 per year in USA, 9t in France, 5.5t in Romania and 4t in China. You can calculate the rate for yourself [3].

And that's only to come back to nature-reasonable footprints. If we want to offset the carbon that's already in the air, we need to make even more effort.

So the effort in every industrialized country is to divide our emissions by ~10, which is unreachable by simple personal action.

[1] https://www.manicore.com/anglais/documentation_a/greenhouse/...

[2] http://carbonfootprintofnations.com/content/environmental_fo...

[3] http://www.carbonindependent.org/ - Carbon footprint calculator

Since you too believe in the power of markets, a huge tax on carbon will advantage those who emit fewer CO2 and will be much easier to manage for corporations than any regulation. It has to be offset by lowering other taxes, so we don't increase the global tax pressure on the economy. It just has to be high enough so that all the cost of global warming weighs on CO2 emitters only, which probably means some types of jobs (e.g. half of car factories) belong to the past. But it's either that, or a global warming that creates such pressure on our civilizations that we might live in endless wars.

Re: Kids Win the Right to Sue the US Government Over Climate Change

#56
post #55
post #21

I am glad kids are taking action rather than just complaining, however, people can take personal action. The money for any pay out from a suit will most likely come from their future social benefits rather than the industries they are suing. Some personal choices to take action on: Buy local produce, and let your local supermarket or grocer know this. Educate others. It saves on all of the transport emissions from ai…

> people can take personal action They can, but it won't help. Just watch Mythbusters to understand that things you don't consume will be consumed by someone else. When we need to divide our emissions by 10, people who make an effort won't offset people who don't. Carpooling won't help enough. Economy cars won't help. Renewable heating won't help. Wind turbines won't help. All of that together will never even divide…

Add to this, increasing green energy generation produces credits to sell, which enables more CO2 emissions.

Re: Kids Win the Right to Sue the US Government Over Climate Change

#57
post #30
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but if this is the only solution, why not? It's not the only solution, and government didn't create it. People are causing global warming, not government. It's people who decide to use cars and get stuck in traffic instead taking a bus, bus will go that route anyway, people in cars will cause more traffic and generate more pollution. People who don't turn off lights (also TVs, computers) at their homes over night. I…

> It's not the only solution, and government didn't create it. People are causing global warming, not government. It's people who decide to use cars and get stuck in traffic instead taking a bus, bus will go that route anyway, people in cars will cause more traffic and generate more pollution. This is what's wrong. The government is supposed to be the people. The point of government is for people to steer people (as…

And yet the true power is the policy makers in governments and board rooms who have(had?) the ability to incentivize and influence adoption of more sustainable actions. These people make decisions every single day. Their primary motivation? Profit for them and theirs. Their business models & the global economy relies on people consuming & throwing shit away, thus creating jobs, increasing production and, in turn, infinite quarterly growth... jusy like a parasitoid or a cancer. The dichotomous messages is what irritates me to no end with every "don't change habits, buy X to reduce your carbon footprint" news piece run ad infinum every. single. day.

I don't have the answers and, luckily, I am not a policy maker or would be fined for deprecating 2 year old equipment, producers would account for the residual effects of their products' existence after it's usefulness expired, etc..

Now everyone run out and get in that Black Friday line to binge buy all those new XYZs, they're so much newer than the last iterations!

Re: Kids Win the Right to Sue the US Government Over Climate Change

#58
post #21

I am glad kids are taking action rather than just complaining, however, people can take personal action. The money for any pay out from a suit will most likely come from their future social benefits rather than the industries they are suing. Some personal choices to take action on: Buy local produce, and let your local supermarket or grocer know this. Educate others. It saves on all of the transport emissions from ai…

This idea that fighting global warming has to start from individual behavior disregards the fact that lifestyle choices have social implications and are likewise constrained by social situations. Individuals are tied to their environment and free will meets constraints in reality. There are people who wish to adopt more sustainable lifestyles, but can't because it would make them unable to find a job, see their family and friends, move around, etc. Individual choices have a marginal impact. And this impact ofter comes with a high cost in terms of comfort.

The idea that change must come from individuals has been around for a long time, without much effect so far. I hope governments can support people who want to live in a way that is closer to their values (sustainability) by actively disincentivize irresponsible and destructive behavior.

Re: Kids Win the Right to Sue the US Government Over Climate Change

#59

It makes me worry when people think that "Government" is something unrelated to people, like it was an alien structure that just arrived in his country. In democracies, I mean. Because, you know, it's weird to complain or sue every time that the government doesn't make something you wanted. Because in few years people have the power to elect another set of representatives.

Everyone who voted for these policies will be dead and buried before the chickens come home to roost.

Re: Kids Win the Right to Sue the US Government Over Climate Change

#60

It makes me worry when people think that "Government" is something unrelated to people, like it was an alien structure that just arrived in his country. In democracies, I mean. Because, you know, it's weird to complain or sue every time that the government doesn't make something you wanted. Because in few years people have the power to elect another set of representatives.

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