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Kids Win the Right to Sue the US Government Over Climate Change

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Re: Kids Win the Right to Sue the US Government Over Climate Change

#41

Post by DennisP »

woliveirajr wrote: post #31

It makes me worry when people think that "Government" is something unrelated to people, like it was an alien structure that just arrived in his country. In democracies, I mean. Because, you know, it's weird to complain or sue every time that the government doesn't make something you wanted. Because in few years people have the power to elect another set of representatives.

The court system is part of the government, and an important part of the checks and balances which make modern democracy work.

Re: Kids Win the Right to Sue the US Government Over Climate Change

#42

Post by AlgorithmicTime »

akerro wrote: post #18
Loic wrote: post #15

I am surprised by the very negative ton of the first 10+ comments. These kids are not kids any more. They are between 15 and 20. As a reminder, Lafayette was 16. They see an issue and act on it with the tools they have. When you have an issue with a piece of software, you look at the alternatives and possibly you act on the issue, you fix it. They do what you do as designer/software developer, just in another field.…

>but if this is the only solution, why not? It's not the only solution, and government didn't create it. People are causing global warming, not government. It's people who decide to use cars and get stuck in traffic instead taking a bus, bus will go that route anyway, people in cars will cause more traffic and generate more pollution. People who don't turn off lights (also TVs, computers) at their homes over night. I…

Wood burning is more environmentally friendly than any other combustion heat source. Wood regrows.

Re: Kids Win the Right to Sue the US Government Over Climate Change

#43

Post by sharemywin »

woliveirajr wrote: post #31

It makes me worry when people think that "Government" is something unrelated to people, like it was an alien structure that just arrived in his country. In democracies, I mean. Because, you know, it's weird to complain or sue every time that the government doesn't make something you wanted. Because in few years people have the power to elect another set of representatives.

Children don't have a vote. And we continue to make decisions that benefit today at the expensive of tomorrow.

Re: Kids Win the Right to Sue the US Government Over Climate Change

#45

Post by vixen99 »

lemming wrote: post #37
woliveirajr wrote: post #31

It makes me worry when people think that "Government" is something unrelated to people, like it was an alien structure that just arrived in his country. In democracies, I mean. Because, you know, it's weird to complain or sue every time that the government doesn't make something you wanted. Because in few years people have the power to elect another set of representatives.

What they haven't had recently is the option to vote in anyone who'll take climate change very seriously.

Many (actually millions of) people take it very seriously, particularly those who thanks to de-industrialisation, will likely lose their jobs, sink back into poverty or give up hope of rising out of it and of course those in northern hemisphere who suffer massively or die from not being able to warm themselves.

Doubtless you think the alternative is armageddon. I get that. But when people read that the estimates of global temperature reduction are of an order too little to detect in return for massive global pain by those least able to avoid it (with consequent enrichment by some of the rest of us), one wonders why the case made for that scenario is not more persuasive to people like Judith Curry for instance (and many other well informed authorities). As a specific recent example: to suggest she'd risk the future of mankind on Earth for the chance of preferment in Trump's administration, as has been suggested is beyond satire.

Re: Kids Win the Right to Sue the US Government Over Climate Change

#46

Post by couchand »

privong wrote: post #40
woliveirajr wrote: post #31

It makes me worry when people think that "Government" is something unrelated to people, like it was an alien structure that just arrived in his country. In democracies, I mean. Because, you know, it's weird to complain or sue every time that the government doesn't make something you wanted. Because in few years people have the power to elect another set of representatives.

> it's weird to complain or sue every time that the government doesn't make something you wanted. Because in few years people have the power to elect another set of representatives. You're correct if the government rules/laws are all made by the representatives. But a substantial amount of regulation is established or defined in detail by non-elected government employees. So, in many cases, waiting for a change in re…

I think this is a mischaracterization of the way government operates. congressional representatives are not "abdictating" any role. They provide guidance that is all too specific in many cases, because the legal standard requires it. The folks in Congress are right to set the national budget and priorities, but it is a good thing that the details of implementation are left to agencies, because they're the ones with the experience and technical knowledge to know how to achieve the objectives.

Your example of surveillance is completely misplaced. If, after the Snowden revelations, congresspersons in favor of widespread surveillance continue to be elected, that's actually a sign the American people are fine with it.

If you think a law or regulation violates your rights, the correct avenue to address the issue is the courts.

Re: Kids Win the Right to Sue the US Government Over Climate Change

#47

Post by stinos »

akerro wrote: post #18
Loic wrote: post #15

I am surprised by the very negative ton of the first 10+ comments. These kids are not kids any more. They are between 15 and 20. As a reminder, Lafayette was 16. They see an issue and act on it with the tools they have. When you have an issue with a piece of software, you look at the alternatives and possibly you act on the issue, you fix it. They do what you do as designer/software developer, just in another field.…

>but if this is the only solution, why not? It's not the only solution, and government didn't create it. People are causing global warming, not government. It's people who decide to use cars and get stuck in traffic instead taking a bus, bus will go that route anyway, people in cars will cause more traffic and generate more pollution. People who don't turn off lights (also TVs, computers) at their homes over night. I…

I feel your wrath, all your points are things which should be addressed and the amount of people not giving a single f are legion. But saying government didn't create this is too short-sighted:

- they at least have a part in it. Just take your 'people who decide to use cars' argument: in countries like Belgium where it is, simply explained, more economical for a company to lease cars and give them to employees than to give the employees more loan. You can imagine what an employee does with a car he/she often doesn't even have to pay the gas for.

- they should be part of the solution as well. In my opinion it's their job to create a system where information and education about any of the problems you mention is available, or no, mandatory, for everyone annd definitely children. Teach them to do right, instead of having them believe chasing glamour or so is what's needed in life.

Re: Kids Win the Right to Sue the US Government Over Climate Change

#48

Post by couchand »

s_m_t wrote: post #8

I doubt this will get very far. It seems like it would open up a whole can of worms and completely subvert our entire system of law making. >She declared the facts of man-made climate change “undisputed,” and supported the plaintiffs’ challenge to hold national powers accountable for the damages caused by global warming. >Aikin wrote: “This action is of a different order than the typical environmental case. It allege…

I'm glad someone noticed this. The judge basically said, "there's no legal basis for this challenge," which means it would have to be some amazing legal analysis to pass scrutiny.

Re: Kids Win the Right to Sue the US Government Over Climate Change

#49

Post by couchand »

Loic wrote: post #15

I am surprised by the very negative ton of the first 10+ comments. These kids are not kids any more. They are between 15 and 20. As a reminder, Lafayette was 16. They see an issue and act on it with the tools they have. When you have an issue with a piece of software, you look at the alternatives and possibly you act on the issue, you fix it. They do what you do as designer/software developer, just in another field.…

Yeah, it's probably stupid to sue (from a legal perspective, that is, it may be useful as PR), given that the judge seems to have admitted that there's no legal basis for the claim: Aikin wrote: “This action is of a different order than the typical environmental case. It alleges that defendants’ actions and inactions—whether or not they violate any specific statutory duty—have so profoundly damaged our home planet that they threaten plaintiffs’ fundamental constitutional rights to life and liberty.” This is a novel legal argument, and it would have to be brilliant to gain much traction.

Re: Kids Win the Right to Sue the US Government Over Climate Change

#50

Post by tajen »

calibraxis wrote: post #16
Loic wrote: post #15

I am surprised by the very negative ton of the first 10+ comments. These kids are not kids any more. They are between 15 and 20. As a reminder, Lafayette was 16. They see an issue and act on it with the tools they have. When you have an issue with a piece of software, you look at the alternatives and possibly you act on the issue, you fix it. They do what you do as designer/software developer, just in another field.…

Evidence that HN is a right-wing capitalist site (like both US political parties): in a discussion of threats to humanity, an apparently highly-rated comment talks about paying too much in taxes. And fears that solutions to global warming will "completely subvert our entire system of law making." (Both of which are good things: not just markets, but the nation state system itself, are exactly what need disrupting. Th…

But there's a third explanation that doesn't imply it's right-wing capitalism: Maybe paying more taxes still doesn't solve global warming? A problem when I discuss global warming with colleagues is that they attempt to put me in one side (deniers) or the other (social-ecology), both of which don't match my views (In my case, I think tying social with ecology hurts both results, but the comment you're talking about has other ideas). So instead of judging and classifying this person, please dig into their logic and provide them with sources.
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