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Post Virtual Reality Sadness

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Re: Post Virtual Reality Sadness

#81
Something I've noticed in many comments is its a mix of the game or story with perceptual warping.

My own perceptual warping story doesn't come with a game, but I assure you its super disorienting to spend a couple hours looking thru a low power binoc microscope to work on electronics and then just get up and walk around, your hand eye coordination is all messed up for awhile because what you see your hands do has been times 2 magnified and bent 90 degrees upward for some hours. Putting a key in a keyhole is a challenge for a couple minutes till reality snaps back. Its a form of sea sickness, after all. Your position sense doesn't match your optic sense and that makes some people puke although in low doses you just feel really weird.

Much like there is a difference between the taste of a beer in a relaxed setting vs after a long afternoon of yard work, your blood sugar or hormones or something distort your perception of the taste of the beer. Or DnD / pathfinder / rpg in general seems more fun when candle-lit. And a zillion observations in a hundred comments here about drugs or whatever.

I would think there are more technological opportunities to mix perception alteration with a story or game than just AI or what we've mentioned. Perhaps someone could scientifically calculate a formula to determine the correct music for a game. Maybe there is a type of food that naturally goes with social media use (probably something sugary). Maybe a certain hue of general room lighting is good for certain TV genres. Aside from VR technology, however cool it may be, I have this feeling narrative/game plus perception warping is a large mostly unexplored solution space.

I like to sail. I wonder if, along the lines of the theory above, liking sailing comes from ultra low dose perceptual warping due to subclinical sea sickness combined with the purely mechanical labor of sailing. Could you give me a small dose of anti-anti-sea sickness pills and I'd love basketweaving or something.

Re: Post Virtual Reality Sadness

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few years ago I started reading "The Wheel of Time" by Robert Jordan. I had somehow timed it so that the week I finished the thirteenth book "Towers of Midnight" the fourteenth book "A Memory of Light" came out. I blew through the first chunk of the book and then got to a chapter that was over a hundred pages long, maybe even longer, Google says it was over fifty thousand words. It was the last battle, the moment t…

> I'll probably re-read the books someday, but I know it won't be the same. That is how I felt about Planescape: Torment, widely regarded to have one of the best tales of all RPGs, and all other great stories in other mediums. It makes me wish there was some way to get selective voluntary amnesia, where you wipe all memories of the specific content of something, just keep the feeling that it's something you have to e…

> selective voluntary amnesia

I'm lucky (?) enough to have the involuntary form of this to some degree for media. I will often forget the plot points of a movie I've watched within days to weeks, and in many cases after a year I have completely forgotten ever even having watched it. I'll pick a movie, my wife will say "we've already seen that", I'll say "I don't think so", she lovingly puts up with me because she luckily likes re-watching movies, and even by the end of the show I'll have nothing but a vague sense of deja-vu the whole time.

I have on multiple occasions, rewatched movies with twist endings like The Usual Suspects and still been surprised on the second or third viewing.

I'd rather have my wife's photographic (videographic) movie recall though...

Re: Post Virtual Reality Sadness

#83
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get like this with my favorite things. I do it less frequently than I did as a child, but I still do. It's silly I guess. The last book I did this with was "Permutation City" by Greg Egan. There's probably less than an hour's worth of reading left, but I just don't want it to end. This was maybe a year ago and I still haven't touched it since. Eventually I'll probably re-read it from the beginning and actually fini…

For what its worth, Egan has written a few works that follow up on, and expand, the ideas presented in Permutation City. Most notably Diaspora and Schild's Ladder. So there's more to enjoy after you finish it :-)

I actually bought Diaspora and Axiomatic while still within the first few chapters of Permutation City because I liked it so much. That was on the tail end of a sci-fi binge though, and I haven't read Diaspora yet, or much sci-fi since. Next time I feel like it though, I know I've got a very good backlog waiting for me.

Here's hoping I don't want to finish his other novels either :)

Re: Post Virtual Reality Sadness

#84
post #18

People talk a lot about futuristic sex robots but what about VR experiences that are not only physical but deeply emotional - wherein you experience seduction and actually fall in love? Think about riding in a weeks long 18 hour a day RPG crusade with a Milla Jovovich lookalike Joan of Arc who, in between battles, is irreparably infatuated with you. The tech needed to achieve this level of total immersion may yet be…

Well, a lot of people did have feels for Eden at the end of Rez...

Re: Post Virtual Reality Sadness

#85
post #19

I don't know that this is VR-specific. I remember feeling like this after: - Playing with MS Paint on Windows 3.1 for hours on end until my eyes burned when i was 8. - Inhaling Lord of the Rings in about a week when i was 10. - Playing Ocarina of Time for 12 hours a day as a young teen. - Playing WoW in 100-hour weeks as an undergrad on summer break.

Agreed. This whole phenomenon was reported on widely after "Avatar" came out. News anchors gleefully reporting that people left the theater feeling depressed their world wasn't as fantastic as Avatar. More of "the kids aren't alright!" reporting they love to do to scare parents and elderly folks. My solution: Move out of the big cities. I live in a small town in the countryside and my world is that fantastic.

> More of "the kids aren't alright!" reporting they love to do to scare parents and elderly folks.

Sadly this is one of those topics, like violence in video games, where we don't get beyond this cycle of "accuse and deny". Which is a shame because IMO there are really important topics here we need to address collectively such as how this connects to addiction http://www.paulgraham.com/addiction.html

The "data point" I've been able to confirm with other parents of small kids (under 10) is there is a connection between extended periods of computer-aided escapism and aggression.

The experiment you can try with most kids is give them a smartphone or iPad for 1-2 hours then take it away again with minimal warning but without using force. Once you've recovered the device, the next 15-30 minutes will typically involve aggressive behaviour; shouting, physical aggression towards siblings, demands to have the device back and something not unlike Gollum desiring his Precious.

Based on my own experiences, adults can exhibit similar behaviour but extremes are dampened by conditioning, so harder to detect e.g it manifests itself in different ways e.g. sadness or depression instead of aggression.

My hypothesis for this is something like 'For every 15 minutes given to a medium capable of 'fully absorbing' human attention (books, computer games VR), 5 minutes of "unconscious recovery time" will be required to re-align the attention to the current "real" reality, during which subjects may display behaviour such as aggression, sadness or general distractedness / fidgeting'

This ratio of 15 to 5 might be different depending on the medium e.g. VR might have a more accentuated ratio than reading a book.

Why this is so I can't say for sure, but it's something like a tax on time spent existing in a disconnected reality vs. the "real reality" our bodies live in.

Re: Post Virtual Reality Sadness

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It could also allow us to increasingly choose to build fully artificial realities. Many works of science fiction as well as some forecasts by serious technologists and futurologists predict that enormous amounts of computing power will be available in the future. Let us suppose for a moment that these predictions are correct. One thing that later generations might do with their super-powerful computers is run detai…

> [...] predict that enormous amounts of computing power will be available in the future. Let us suppose for a moment that these predictions are correct. This bit is seems little bit strange to me in that it's actually not necessary at all[1]... a simulation runs on its "own timescale", i.e. it doesn't actually matter how fast/slowly the simulator runs -- the simulation still experiences time advancing at the proverb…

> a trivial rehashing of solipsism

Solipsism doesn't seem to quite fit. Like, sure, you're a brain in a jar in this scenario... but there are a lot of other brains sharing the jar with you, too. Solipsism inherently requires a singular existence rather than a communal one.

Re: Post Virtual Reality Sadness

#87
I'm not sure "sadness" is the way I'd describe it, but returning back to the real world is a bit weird if you've been in for a few hours. I've always attributed it to the wind-down. The crazy part of onward is it literally invokes a prolonged adrenaline reaction. At least it used to, it's not nearly as much anymore. Leaving can be exhausting. It's definitely part of the addicting aspects. The first few times when I dove to the ground because I heard gunshots near me was exhilarating. I find myself wanting increasingly more intense moments.

Re: Post Virtual Reality Sadness

#89
post #18

People talk a lot about futuristic sex robots but what about VR experiences that are not only physical but deeply emotional - wherein you experience seduction and actually fall in love? Think about riding in a weeks long 18 hour a day RPG crusade with a Milla Jovovich lookalike Joan of Arc who, in between battles, is irreparably infatuated with you. The tech needed to achieve this level of total immersion may yet be…

Looking at the "waifu" culture in Anime, it doesn't seem like you need a particularly deep or compelling experience. What you describe already happens; it just might start happening for a slightly broader array of people.

Re: Post Virtual Reality Sadness

#90

I wonder if the author has ever experienced the joy of reading a good book, or the first showing an amazing movie. Finishing an amazing story, you feel a let down afterwords; the characters were not real and you can never interact with them. The realm of fictional worlds are often more engaging, and seem superior to the world you live your day-to-day life in. The actions and experiences in those stories were more ful…

Yeah I was going to add that I get sad after a good book or tv show or film or video games but reading the article it seems to talk about a much more debilitating effects related to the increased immersion from VR. I think it warrants some closer study specifically because it reminds me of that scene from Inception, where people prefer their VR life over their own and end up like junkies in an opium den.

If you look at how good computer graphics have gotten, it's no a far stretch to see where it will be in 20 years, 40 years. Suddenly, the are-we-in-a-simulation philosophical debate comes to mind.

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