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“I have toyota corola”

daniel.haxx.se

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Re: “I have toyota corola”

#241

Post by ivraatiems »

lucio wrote: post #237
ivraatiems wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about political correctness. It's about what these people make you feel, and how you respond to it. People want to believe that somebody whom they like on one score - Linus's technical achievements, Donald Trump's ability to empathize with the working class and the poor - are likable on all scores. It's much like the classic literary 'harsh father' figure - he may beat you, he may be strict, he may never sho…

He's very clear in that he doesn't care about how you feel. If you understand that, and also you're ok with the idea that kernel's code quality is above everything, then join the team, else just use the product... or not.

I think your approach is reasonable, but lots of people on HN do not take it, and suggest that people who don't like it are the ones who are wrong. That is, they genuinely think the way he behaves should be aspired to. I agree that I can't change it myself, but that doesn't mean I support it.

Re: “I have toyota corola”

#242

Post by ivraatiems »

ng12 wrote: post #234
ivraatiems wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're conflating corporatespeak/not being direct with being rude. Compare these three statements: "There's a problem with the function you wrote. I need you to fix it tonight." "The function you wrote is non-optimal for our goals. Please reconsider and reevaluate when you get a chance." "You fucked up that function. Fix up your shit NOW." The first is "standard professionalspeak." It's clear, direct, gets th…

The third statement would have been totally acceptable in my last team's slack channel. We all respected each other as both friends and developers so language of that sort was absolutely accepted. Sure, as an outsider it might seem brusque but for someone familiar with the team it was clearly camaraderie. Talking about language without context is meaningless and so I try not to judge Linus off of a few publicly avail…

It's not "a few public emails." It's many, many examples over many, many years from a massive, high-volume email list that represents the bulk of the work done on the Linux kernel.

It's clear from the very public, recurrent fallout from Linus's behavior that it is not a matter of camaraderie or simple outsider misunderstanding. I agree, context matters. It's precisely because of the context that this language is not tolerable. The LKML is not a private Slack channel for friends.

Absolutely, among friends, such talk is generally tolerated and isn't a sign of rudeness or disrespect. My friends and I do the same thing in private channels. But in public in a professional setting is not at all the place for that.

Re: “I have toyota corola”

#243

Post by chc »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #239
chc wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has Linus ever been rude to you? Have any of your friends complained about taking the brunt of his rudeness? If so, that would be really interesting. From what I've seen, there is basically nobody who has actually complained, "Linus was rude to me." It seems to be a meme that consists almost entirely of putting words in other people's mouths.

https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/23/75 For what it's worth, coworkers have pointed out to me how much of a bully Linus has been. I'm not sure it matters that the bullying wasn't directed at them. Bullying is still bullying. To put it another way, would you want your manager to speak to you how Linus spoke to Mauro? Even if it was deserved? Linus also doubles down and insists it's ok: http://arstechnica.com/information-t…

I wouldn't want my manager to speak to me the way Linux spoke to Mauro. I also wouldn't want my manager to tell me to program in Java. I also wouldn't want people to do to me a lot of the things they do in the bedroom. But as long as they don't do it to me, and the people who are doing it are freely consenting, I do not consider it my place to tell them what they may or may not do.

Re: “I have toyota corola”

#244

Post by andrewbinstock »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #110
kpgraham wrote: post #90

Back in the days of shareware, around 1985, I wrote a program called TXT2COM. It was a simple way of turning a text file into an executable. All a user had to do was run the converted com file and the text file appeared on the screen with full scrolling, search and save. I had my name and phone number embedded in the program. My first problem was when someone converted the Constitution of the United States into a COM…

Knuth is such a class act. I don't think I've ever heard a negative story about him. Contrast him to, say, the harsh laguage Linus Torvalds routinely engages in or the many stories pointing out Steve Jobs' unfriendly side. I'm not 100% sure if you have to be a jerk to get ahead in life and lean towards 'yes' on this but when I see guys like Knuth, I wonder if nice guys do win sometimes. >TXT2COM As an 80s BBS kid, I…

I interviewed Knuth several years ago [1] and found him to be just as classy in person as his reputation suggests. An article I read in preparation for that interview described him as someone who made you feel smarter by simply interacting with him. I found this to be true as well.

[1] http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=1193856

Re: “I have toyota corola”

#245

Post by randallsquared »

ng12 wrote: post #234
ivraatiems wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're conflating corporatespeak/not being direct with being rude. Compare these three statements: "There's a problem with the function you wrote. I need you to fix it tonight." "The function you wrote is non-optimal for our goals. Please reconsider and reevaluate when you get a chance." "You fucked up that function. Fix up your shit NOW." The first is "standard professionalspeak." It's clear, direct, gets th…

The third statement would have been totally acceptable in my last team's slack channel. We all respected each other as both friends and developers so language of that sort was absolutely accepted. Sure, as an outsider it might seem brusque but for someone familiar with the team it was clearly camaraderie. Talking about language without context is meaningless and so I try not to judge Linus off of a few publicly avail…

> We all respected each other as both friends ...

> My Australian friends will ...

There's a common thread here: if you already know for sure that someone has respect and/or affection for you, harsh language from them just reinforces that, precisely because talking that way to a stranger or acquaintance is hostile.

Re: “I have toyota corola”

#246

Post by chc »

peterwwillis wrote: post #238
chc wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Policing other people's interactions without the consent of any involved party is pure paternalism. What you think is shit being flung might be Tootsie Rolls to them, and it is not our place to tell these people how they have to feel.

Consent is irrellevant. We have a society specifically to police each other. And because we suck at both policing each other and achieving consensus and cooperation, we have government. In terms of profanity, if someone says "man, I had a really shitty day today", that's not really harmful and doesn't have significant consequences. But when someone says "you are a real piece of shit", that is harmful, and does have c…

The other day, I tried an underhanded trick in a board game and won, and my friend said something along the lines of "You are a real piece of shit." She was really frustrated that I'd managed to trick her like that, but I knew there wasn't any real hatred underneath and I took it as a compliment. Would you harass my friend for our friendly banter, since the fact that we are both 100% OK with the conversation is irrelevant?

Re: “I have toyota corola”

#247

Post by Jefff8 »

chc wrote: post #220
paxcoder wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linus' rudeness is not culture but an abandonement thereof. For being influential he should only be held to a higher standard. His bad example should certainly not be followed. Sincerely, your friendly non-native English co-speaker.

Has Linus ever been rude to you? Have any of your friends complained about taking the brunt of his rudeness? If so, that would be really interesting. From what I've seen, there is basically nobody who has actually complained, "Linus was rude to me." It seems to be a meme that consists almost entirely of putting words in other people's mouths.

I'd just like to note that in some interactions I had with Linus, he was very polite, when he had some reasons to be impolite. I think the blunt interactions are almost always to do with things done by people who should know better.

It's much more newsworthy that Linus was rude, than that he wasn't. News is biased. Who knew!

Re: “I have toyota corola”

#248

Post by sssilver »

ivraatiems wrote: post #228
sssilver wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an Armenian living in Texas and his communication is completely acceptable to me. If anything the standard American corporate professional speak pisses me off when matters get serious. Why don't we embrace that different things work for different people and there is no communication standard to be imposed per continent or even culture?

I think you're conflating corporatespeak/not being direct with being rude. Compare these three statements: "There's a problem with the function you wrote. I need you to fix it tonight." "The function you wrote is non-optimal for our goals. Please reconsider and reevaluate when you get a chance." "You fucked up that function. Fix up your shit NOW." The first is "standard professionalspeak." It's clear, direct, gets th…

The way I see it, the whole point of communication is that people use a medium (like speech or writing) to get each other on the same wavelength. If in my head I'm thinking "I fucked up this function. I probably need to fix up my shit NOW", and the next person's reaction matches it, we are on the same wavelength. We can thus be more than the sum of our parts.

If he/she instead goes "There's a problem with the function you wrote", and in my head I need to go through the gymnastics of "I think he/she's basically saying that I fucked this function up and I need to fix my shit now", that adds a bit more effort to our communication.

Same is true in the reverse example of course.

Which is why people need to work with the right people, and there's no one-size-fits-all, especially when it comes to something as intricate as inter-person communications. Culture fit is real.

Re: “I have toyota corola”

#249

Post by drzaiusapelord »

andrewbinstock wrote: post #244
drzaiusapelord wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Knuth is such a class act. I don't think I've ever heard a negative story about him. Contrast him to, say, the harsh laguage Linus Torvalds routinely engages in or the many stories pointing out Steve Jobs' unfriendly side. I'm not 100% sure if you have to be a jerk to get ahead in life and lean towards 'yes' on this but when I see guys like Knuth, I wonder if nice guys do win sometimes. >TXT2COM As an 80s BBS kid, I…

I interviewed Knuth several years ago [1] and found him to be just as classy in person as his reputation suggests. An article I read in preparation for that interview described him as someone who made you feel smarter by simply interacting with him. I found this to be true as well. [1] http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=1193856

>Remember, though, that my opinion on economic questions is highly suspect, since I’m just an educator and scientist. I understand almost nothing about the marketplace.

Can you imagine guys like Musk, Kurzweil, Hawking, etc saying such a thing. It seems like its very in vogue to be a "man of everything" and "expert in all things" right now. Hawking writes about AI even though he's done zero AI research or any AI software engineering. Kurzweil sees himself as an expert in aging and medicine even though he holds no M.D. Musk is an endless source of 'big ideas' many of which are highly questionable and well outside of his wheelhouse of rocketry and cars.

What a humbling response by Knuth. We can't we have more people like this?

Re: “I have toyota corola”

#250

Post by peterwwillis »

chc wrote: post #246
peterwwillis wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consent is irrellevant. We have a society specifically to police each other. And because we suck at both policing each other and achieving consensus and cooperation, we have government. In terms of profanity, if someone says "man, I had a really shitty day today", that's not really harmful and doesn't have significant consequences. But when someone says "you are a real piece of shit", that is harmful, and does have c…

The other day, I tried an underhanded trick in a board game and won, and my friend said something along the lines of "You are a real piece of shit." She was really frustrated that I'd managed to trick her like that, but I knew there wasn't any real hatred underneath and I took it as a compliment. Would you harass my friend for our friendly banter, since the fact that we are both 100% OK with the conversation is irrel…

Yep. I would like to think I would be respectful in informing her I found her comment impolite, just like I would tell someone who said something sexist that their comment is unacceptable.
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