Earlier quoted context omitted.
> They're ignorant, sure, but it's hard to see things > from another perspective if you've never really been > exposed to anything else. Are you sure they're ignorant? Could they not be intelligent, rational individuals with the personal agency to have looked at the same facts as you and come up with different conclusions?
Not on that subject, no. It's not reasonably possible for a person to look at the known facts of modern biology and not believe in the process of evolution. Things intelligent, well-read people can disagree on: fiscal policy; democracy versus republic; abortion rights; single-payer healthcare. Things so overwhelmingly shown to be factually true that it's not a sign of reasonableness to debate them: Earth and life are…
Dan Rather: Now, More Than Ever, We Must Stand Up for Science
61–70 of 112 posts
Re: Dan Rather: Now, More Than Ever, We Must Stand Up for Science
#62Taking Dan Rather's advice on a responsible attitude to science is like going to Bill Cosby for dating advice, or asking Rolf Harris to run your kindergarten. Booted from CBS in disgrace for confusing journalism with character assassination. Read the original CBS report. "This man is a truth teller". Indeed. Here is the full report. http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/complete_report/CBS_Report...
Please take your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem somewhere else, it only suggests ignorance on your part.
Re: Dan Rather: Now, More Than Ever, We Must Stand Up for Science
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
Please take your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem somewhere else, it only suggests ignorance on your part.
"suggests ignorance" == ad hominem. Rather is a discredited hack. Get a clue.
Re: Dan Rather: Now, More Than Ever, We Must Stand Up for Science
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
Some of the greatest scientific discoveries in history were made by people thinking they were glorifying god by doing their work. Faith and science go together just fine, and I say this as a hard atheist.
Doesn't that depend on the religion though? Like evangelicals don't think human made global warming is real because humans can't alter gods creation. I think most people will accept the evidence as long as it doesn't go against some of their core beliefs (which can be expanded beyond religion). It's just that for a lot of scientific discoveries there is at least one group that refuses to accept it.
I no longer practice evangelism, but a part of me is still walks in the same faith I had growing up, not because it's scientifically sound, but because it's a useful and positive thought model and world view for me.
To my point: looking here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism
"Evangelicalism, Evangelical Christianity, or Evangelical Protestantism is a worldwide, transdenominational movement within Protestant Christianity maintaining that the essence of the gospel consists in the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ's atonement."
That's nicely spells out the kind of 'Evangelical' I was and am.
Those who believe the Bible says that humans can't alter God's creation, at least among the protestant community with which I am most familiar, are pretty rare and they're reaching long and wide to come up with scriptural justification for that belief. I've only run into one or two people who held this belief.
However, quite a few self-identified Evangelicals don't think that humans can change God's creation, but they don't take that as a religious teaching. This disparity, I believe, comes from the decades of politicization of various Protestant sects in the United States and elsewhere.
Indeed, up until the election last week, they were, by and large, a direct arm of the Republican party.
Re: Dan Rather: Now, More Than Ever, We Must Stand Up for Science
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
Doesn't that depend on the religion though? Like evangelicals don't think human made global warming is real because humans can't alter gods creation. I think most people will accept the evidence as long as it doesn't go against some of their core beliefs (which can be expanded beyond religion). It's just that for a lot of scientific discoveries there is at least one group that refuses to accept it.
> Like evangelicals don't think human made global warming is real because humans can't alter gods creation Certain types of Christian denominations tend to strongly profess biblical literalism, which encourages this type of thinking, but this isn't representative of the entire group. This type of thinking is what enforces the problem I mentioned. I am an Orthodox Christian, and I have yet to find some type of scienti…
Re: Dan Rather: Now, More Than Ever, We Must Stand Up for Science
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
Let's say that eventually it is the consensus of the scientific community that things like consciousness, pain and free will are just illusions, and therefore, human rights are an outdated concept, and future policy decisions should reflect that consensus. You'd resist those policy proposals, and I think most people would. You'd base that resistance on your values - values, which in this case at least, you did NOT de…
Your point is right, but your example is terribly flawed, because as whateveracct notes, > and therefore, human rights are an outdated concept is a value judgement that cannot be derived from scientific principles.
The fact that mankind is responsible from global warming has nothing to do with needing to do something about it, or what exactly should be done. But it's always spoken about in terms of "science insists we must do something/this about it".
Re: Dan Rather: Now, More Than Ever, We Must Stand Up for Science
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Let's say that eventually it is the consensus of the scientific community that things like consciousness, pain and free will are just illusions, and therefore, human rights are an outdated concept That last part is a value statement that I doubt science could prove.
Consciousness (and pain) aren't illusions because they correspond to external phenomena, and have a significant objective component. An illusion is something that nobody else can experience, even partially, other than the subject having the illusion. Even if free will is rule-based at some low-level, that doesn't erase the concept of rights. We have rights even among inanimate objects. For instance, some server insta…
You're really positing this as actual serious intellectual output? Just because it uses the same word does not mean that "rights" in the context of a server instance has anything to do with rights in the context of human rights.
Re: Dan Rather: Now, More Than Ever, We Must Stand Up for Science
#68Re: Dan Rather: Now, More Than Ever, We Must Stand Up for Science
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
> In the case of climate change, it's pretending that there's cost/benefit analysis to be done. It ignores the possibility that the cost of doing something will exceed the likely damage expected. (I'm not saying that's the case, I'm just saying that folks are trying to skip that part of the conversation) In the case of climate change, we can't even get to the cost/benefit analysis part of the conversation because som…
I hear this a lot and feel like it is a muddled response to a muddled understanding of climate change. For what it is worth: * Science is clear that CO2 causes warming (pure physics), but so do many other gases (methane, water vapor, etc). * Science is clear that global temperatures are rising (even if you quibble about the 'pause') * Science isn't clear regarding what part of global temperature rise is due to human…
* Science isn't clear regarding what part of global temperature rise is due to human activity.
* Science isn't clear on how much and how fast temperatures might rise.
I believe science does have confidence intervals on the ranges, and even the lower ends are pretty bad. As in, it's not a question on "whether" the global food supply pipeline will collapse, but "when" -- 2035 to 2070, depending on the side of the confidence interval you pick. * It doesn't automatically follow that the policy solution is to reduce CO2 emissions to 0.
Nobody is arguing for reducing CO2 emissions to 0. Most of the majority arguments are actually quite tame -- leading to a reduction of profits in coal and oil industries, not a wholesale dissolution. Yet, even that, is seen as an unacceptable cost of increasing the chances of civilization survival by the right-wing party of the United States.Re: Dan Rather: Now, More Than Ever, We Must Stand Up for Science
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
Some of the greatest scientific discoveries in history were made by people thinking they were glorifying god by doing their work. Faith and science go together just fine, and I say this as a hard atheist.
Doesn't that depend on the religion though? Like evangelicals don't think human made global warming is real because humans can't alter gods creation. I think most people will accept the evidence as long as it doesn't go against some of their core beliefs (which can be expanded beyond religion). It's just that for a lot of scientific discoveries there is at least one group that refuses to accept it.
I really don't see a problem there as far as religious scientists.