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Poor people pay for parking even when they can’t afford a car

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Re: Poor people pay for parking even when they can’t afford a car

#301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The one thing that definitely won't make people happy is someone else telling them they don't know how to make themselves happy. People want choice, even if that means making a few incorrect choices. >We know people in cities are, on average, happier and healthier. Some people really dislike cities. I need woods. I need open spaces. I need to see the stars at night. I need a place for my dog to run without some stran…

And I don't have a problem with this, but I do have a problem with minimum numbers of parking spots, or giant parking lots that are unutilized during the night or while you're not at work. Parking spots at place should like Costco are notoriously bad for the planet and aren't some of the least efficient things possible. At some point, the things you value (such as your parks and woods and scenery) are going to brush…

America is extremely large, our economy is shrinking not growing, and our native population is not growing either.

Note that the above situation is fractal similar at different scales ranging from my state to the entire world. Similar but not identical.

Re: Poor people pay for parking even when they can’t afford a car

#302
post #245

Meh. You also pay for the cost of public parks even if you never use them. You pay for the cost of government elementary schools even if you homeschool your kids. etc. Now, I'm an anarchocapitalist and would love to see all of these costs unbundled, so that we each pay only for what we use. ...but the other 99.9% of folks in our society think that it is reasonable to have one-size-fits-all solutions, where a single b…

Just in case someone wants to know:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism

Anarcho-capitalism is a political philosophy that advocates the elimination of the state in favor of individual sovereignty, private property, and free markets. Anarcho-capitalists believe that, in the absence of statute (law by decree or legislation), society would improve itself through the discipline of the free market (or what its proponents describe as a "voluntary society").[2][3]

One aspect that concerned me:

In an anarcho-capitalist society, law enforcement, courts, and all other security services would be operated by privately funded competitors rather than centrally through compulsory taxation. Money, along with all other goods and services, would be privately and competitively provided in an open market.

Sooooooooo private security firms for law enforcement? Pretty sure we saw how that worked out in Iraq with Blackwater. No thank you. There's a ton of flaws with this philosophy once you start thinking about it and following certain aspects to their logical conclusion.

Such as:

>>> I'm an anarchocapitalist and would love to see all of these costs unbundled, so that we each pay only for what we use.

So you only use 2.5 miles of a highway to get to and back from work - right? Should you pay for the entire highway or just the parts you use? So what if other people only use "parts" of that same highway? Does that mean we suddenly have huge gaps in our highways since people are only paying for the parts they use?

Re: Poor people pay for parking even when they can’t afford a car

#303
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You probably live in a walkable city with good public transit, the parent poster probably lives in the other 95% of the USA.

And the reason transit sucks and cars are way more convenient in 95% of the USA is exactly what we're discussing: mandates from the government that prioritize cars over other modes.

I think the problem is that to transition to a public transit model would require the transportation to be built first. It would also require the public transit to operate at a loss for a decade or two while buildings and people transition to this new mode of transportation. Many people are against this in the US because it's expensive and nobody likes tax hikes. Also people love their cars.

Re: Poor people pay for parking even when they can’t afford a car

#304
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, have self-driving minibuses that can pick up ~10 kids and ferry all of them to school.

Children are straight up evil, so you're still going to need a supervising adult on each minibus to keep them from murdering each other.

And destroying the bus. Idle hands and all that...

Re: Poor people pay for parking even when they can’t afford a car

#305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" If you've ever been to an area with insufficient parking, it's pretty horrible." So are places with excess parking. Do you _enjoy_ sauntering through your local big-box shopping center's acres upon acres of parking? Also, if parking is so valuable why is it free? Charge market rate for the land and let people build parking on it if the market will pay. If the market doesn't pay, maybe they don't want the parking th…

> So are places with excess parking. Do you _enjoy_ sauntering through your local big-box shopping center's acres upon acres of parking? You'd typically park in one of the closest open spots, so you don't need to walk through the excess spots.

And the person who walked there?

Re: Poor people pay for parking even when they can’t afford a car

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you could move to a city with more reasonable housing costs, like Minneapolis where 2br apartments <$2k/mo.

> more reasonable housing costs Your "reasonable" housing costs are still double the price for half the space. A lot of Americans just don't have an extra $1,000/month sitting around to throw towards rent. Even if they ditch their car, they'd still be $800/month short.

You can definitely get a place in Minne for $1k. I was just quoting median numbers. $2k for a 2br is in some of the more posh areas. But my point was more reasonable that NYC. Much more space for much let money. And the suburbs here would be even cheaper than the $1k.

Re: Poor people pay for parking even when they can’t afford a car

#307
post #119

Most of the commenters on this thread don't appear to have lived in a country with the opposite problem. Consider what happens when development and car ownership expands in a country without adequate government parking mandates. You routinely find at least two road lanes blocked by parked traffic because buildings don't have adequate parking. This leads to very slow bumper to bumper traffic (try Bangalore, Mumbai, Ca…

You don't even need to live in another country to see that problem. That happens right here in the USA.

In Michigan, lots of new buildings are exempt from parking minimums, as part of pretend initiatives to be "transit-oriented". But there's no actual public transit, everyone still has to drive. So, for businesses/residents in these buildings, people now just park their cars anywhere

Along both sides of streets? Cars. On top of sidewalks and bicycle lanes? Cars. In other people's front yards? Cars. If you live in the neighborhood, your struggling to get in and out of your own property because other people's cars now block you in -- cars from buildings that were supposedly so "transit-oriented" that they didn't need their own parking.

"But that's illegal" you say. Sure, absolutely. But that stops no one -- your still required to drive to go anywhere or get anything done, so it still happens, regardless of how strict enforcement gets.

---

Parking minimums aren't some evil plot to waste land or sell cars. Parking minimums are an attempt to prevent buildings from shoving their parking costs onto other citizens -- which is what happens in 95% of America without those rules.

Re: Poor people pay for parking even when they can’t afford a car

#308
post #119

Most of the commenters on this thread don't appear to have lived in a country with the opposite problem. Consider what happens when development and car ownership expands in a country without adequate government parking mandates. You routinely find at least two road lanes blocked by parked traffic because buildings don't have adequate parking. This leads to very slow bumper to bumper traffic (try Bangalore, Mumbai, Ca…

Blocking lanes to park cars is illegal. It's just a problem of enforcing the rules.

Yes it's tempting to say that but it doesn't solve the underlying problem which is the development didn't create sufficient parking space. It didn't create because the government didn't mandate. A parking lot is not a high value salable area for a property developer and so unless he is building it for the 1% who value and pay a premium for such, there is no incentive fir him to do so. So as people become wealthier and buy vehicles, they park on the street and impose negative externalities on the society.

The article appears to argues that Government mandates of parking space per bedroom etc. are wasteful and should be avoided. I'm pointing out what happens when these mandates are not put in place.

Re: Poor people pay for parking even when they can’t afford a car

#309
post #245

Meh. You also pay for the cost of public parks even if you never use them. You pay for the cost of government elementary schools even if you homeschool your kids. etc. Now, I'm an anarchocapitalist and would love to see all of these costs unbundled, so that we each pay only for what we use. ...but the other 99.9% of folks in our society think that it is reasonable to have one-size-fits-all solutions, where a single b…

To what granularity? Toll booths at each intersection? (Serious question.)

Re: Poor people pay for parking even when they can’t afford a car

#310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I propose a fundamental principle that should be obvious, but apparently isn't. Public policy should aim to improve average quality of life in the short, medium, and long terms. We live in low-population-density areas because we get more, higher quality housing for less money, shorter lines, less crowded public places. We drive instead of taking transit because we get where we're going faster and more comfortably, si…

> You can already make these tradeoffs for yourself by moving to SF or Manhattan, which is generally ill-advised unless you make so much that the astronomical housing costs don't hurt too badly. The shoe is on the other foot. The reason why rent is so high in these places is because there's a lot of demand to live there - people do find it desirable. If more cities were built like SF or Manhattan (i.e. there was more…

"people do find it desirable"

Americans are culturally completely blind to narrowcasting, in this case narrowcasted beliefs about lifestyle.

For example, millions of people are rabid extreme fans of the TV show "Survivor". Its economically important. Its culturally and socially relevant (well, to its super fans who insist on seeing life thru a "Survivor" lens). Enormous sums of money change hands over this one TV show, from its production to its marketing to small time betting. Large amounts of social signalling happen about this TV show. There's nothing wrong with this little hobby of theirs, and they should be left alone. And there's a lot of them.

Yet... yet 29 in 30 people won't watch that TV show for free. Regardless of its economic activity or price or value to an extremely small minority of the population, its value to 97% of the population is zero to negative. For 29 out of 30 people doing anything else is preferable to watching that free TV show.

Someone not blind to narrowcasting can hold both interpretations in their head at the same time.

I would theorize the numbers are not all that different with an analogy of urban living. You can slap any price you'd want on a NYC, SF, SV condo or house, and maybe even get it from another urbanite, but for 29 out of 30 people the value of that property would be zero to negative regardless of the price. That's kinda why almost no one lives there now. There's nothing "wrong" with living there although statistically roughly no one wants to.

I think that philosophical outlook mixes well with that 1984 style authoritarian streak that Americans have, "everything that is permissible must be compulsory" Because we're not going to disassemble and resettle the cities Pol Pot style, we must permit them, and if we permit something it must be compulsory for all, therefore all humans must be moved into cities for their own good regardless of their own opinions on the topic and any deviation from the party line that its a universal good with no downsides is double plus badthink not to be tolerated.

There is likely a lot of "crab pot" thinking where people suffering will do anything to stop others from ending their suffering. Every broken into car, every mugging, every raping, every shooting, all are proof we must stick together to keep everyone else in the city or else I'll have to run for it too. How dare he think himself better than us, we better drag him back down into this crab pot of a city.

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