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Quick, How Might the Alien Spacecraft Work?

blog.stephenwolfram.com

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Re: Quick, How Might the Alien Spacecraft Work?

#51
1) I have seen the movie, and read the post, and his opening claim that "there aren't any spoilers", is kind of not true. While there aren't any explicit, blatant spoilers, he does kind of rub up against the plot a lot, in a way that gives a lot of hints that people might not want to know, before seeing it.

2) Was no one else bothered by his "Pioneer" faux pas? He's obviously extremely advanced, scientifically -- light years beyond my level -- and yet, he erroneously states that Pioneer 10 is the furthest human object in interstellar space ... which stopped being true when Voyager 1 passed it back in the 1990s ... and, strictly speaking, Pioneer hasn't even reached interstellar space, yet.

I know it shouldn't bother me as much as it does ... but of all the science he talks about in this post, this is the one thing I know about -- and he got it wrong, so now I have doubts about everything else he said.

Re: Quick, How Might the Alien Spacecraft Work?

#52
post #6

Interesting post. But I wonder if the focus on how we would communicate with aliens makes sense. In the case of this movie, they arrived here, apparently. If they're that much more technologically advanced than we are, wouldn't they be taking the lead on communicating with us? They'd probably have a substantial set of templates for how to communicate with primitive civilizations developed already.

I've seen the movie. It is the best--and most realistic--"first contact" movie I've ever seen. I have nits to pick with some of the details, but they're minor. You're specific complaint is a valid one, but is (I believe) satisfactorily explained in the movie.

Re: Quick, How Might the Alien Spacecraft Work?

#53
post #6

Interesting post. But I wonder if the focus on how we would communicate with aliens makes sense. In the case of this movie, they arrived here, apparently. If they're that much more technologically advanced than we are, wouldn't they be taking the lead on communicating with us? They'd probably have a substantial set of templates for how to communicate with primitive civilizations developed already.

I've seen Arrival, so minor spoilers. (rot 13) Gur nyvraf ner sne qvssrerag sebz hf, jvgu n aba-cubargvp ynathntr gung vaibyirf "abayvarne haqrefgnaqvat bs gvzr". V chg gung va dhbgrf orpnhfr gur rssrpgf ner qrzbafgengrq va gur svyz, ohg vgf vapbzcyrgryl haqrefgbbq, ol obgu gur punenpgref naq zlfrys (gur nhqvrapr), cebonoyl vagragvbanyyl. Fhssvpr gb fnl, jvgubhg n tenfc bs gur shgher, gnyxvat gb gur nyvraf vf qvssvph…

I've never seen rot 13 spoiler format before, so thanks for that :)

Re: Quick, How Might the Alien Spacecraft Work?

#54

I't funny that so many people assume intelligent beings who build space ships capable of interstellar travel would need our help with understanding human language.

> I't funny

The amount of things an alien would have to know to understand what happened here is immense.

Re: Quick, How Might the Alien Spacecraft Work?

#55
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disliked the story for the same reason I dislike a lot of modern SF (and arts generally): it is nihilist and depressing. The craftsmanship is good , although not great (the split structure feels a bit forced, for example). To use one's skill like this is... sad. The grandmaster of depressing SF was PKD. Story of Your Life left me with the same feeling of hopelessness and sadness as Ubik, which itself demonstrates g…

Have you read any Iain M. Banks? While his books are often bleak ("Use of Weapons" and "Consider Phlebas" and "Against a Dark Background" in particular), and he has a fondness for dark humour and irony (both dramatic and linguistic), they never wander into nihilist territory, and are firmly on the side of humanism and progressiveness in general. He is (or was) also usually a great craftsman.

Yes, I've read almost all his books, there's still a couple sitting on my Kindle.

I disagree with seeing these books as bleak, or indeed anything by Banks (it could be because our definitions of bleak differ, since I agree with you on the other values). The SF part is simply a setting for his strength, which is to detail and praise human character. For example, he continuously breaks the "rules of good writing" such as having dei ex machina (or more properly, dei in machina with some exceptions like The Algebraist) conclude most books but he is an example where it is done in a way that augments the story.

In most Banks stories, characters (including the Minds, for example in Excession) are put in difficult situations made believable by well structured suspension of disbelief ("great craftsmanship"). They get out of these situations using their intelligence and demonstrating courage and a well defined hierarchy of values (including appropriate self-sacrifice for something they value higher than their life). This is philosophically the opposite of Story of My Life and Ubik. Even if the ending is a downer, even if major characters suffer enormously (I'm still marked by Surface Detail years after reading it... truly harrowing), reading Banks had me walk away with my mind augmented somehow.

That being said, on the First contact/alien civilisation front I always got the feeling that Banks' aliens species are always very human, representing different facets of human nature, including the Minds. I think it is on purpose, like Asimov in most of his work he was not setting out to represent truly alien species as Charlie Stross, Peter Watts or Cixin Liu have done but writing novels about human characters and values that happened to be framed by SF.

Re: Quick, How Might the Alien Spacecraft Work?

#56
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you read any Iain M. Banks? While his books are often bleak ("Use of Weapons" and "Consider Phlebas" and "Against a Dark Background" in particular), and he has a fondness for dark humour and irony (both dramatic and linguistic), they never wander into nihilist territory, and are firmly on the side of humanism and progressiveness in general. He is (or was) also usually a great craftsman.

Yes, I've read almost all his books, there's still a couple sitting on my Kindle. I disagree with seeing these books as bleak, or indeed anything by Banks (it could be because our definitions of bleak differ, since I agree with you on the other values). The SF part is simply a setting for his strength, which is to detail and praise human character. For example, he continuously breaks the "rules of good writing" such…

Glad you like them, although I'm surprised — "bleak" doesn't even begin to describe some of the stuff in Banks' novels.

I don't know if you've read the ones I mentioned, but [SPOILERS AHEAD] in Consider Phlebas, every main character dies, the protagonist's species goes extinct in the process, and the epilogue essentially summarizes the whole story as accomplishing absolutely nothing; in Use of Weapons, the protagonist is revealed to have a past as a psychotic, genocidal warlord, and most of the wars he is subsequently involved with as a mercenary go badly for most involved; in Against a Dark Background, everyone except the protagonist dies, and it's fairly traumatic besides (though the unpublished epilogue, which is on the Banks web site, lifts it up a little). Another bleak one is Look to Windward, although the tone is more elegaic; the fate of that sorry anthropologist who studied giant floating aliens is one of the saddest scenes I've ever read (very much reminiscent of PKD's "Rautavaara's Case").

I agree that philosophically, he's on the positivist side of things, despite the amount of sheer death and destruction that goes on in his books. It's a trait, a sort of sarcastic, righteous rebelliousness in the face iniquity, that he shares with Terry Pratchett and Douglas Adams. (Speaking of, I found Feersum Endjinn to be a highly Pratchettian novel. It's also quite different from anything else Banks wrote. It's excellent and probably underrated.)

As an example of a polar opposite, I would point to Stanislaw Lem, who seemingly had zero faith in humanity. Solaris, His Master's Voice and so on take an extremely dim view of humankind's ability to do anything except navelgaze and quibble.

Re: Quick, How Might the Alien Spacecraft Work?

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen Arrival, so minor spoilers. (rot 13) Gur nyvraf ner sne qvssrerag sebz hf, jvgu n aba-cubargvp ynathntr gung vaibyirf "abayvarne haqrefgnaqvat bs gvzr". V chg gung va dhbgrf orpnhfr gur rssrpgf ner qrzbafgengrq va gur svyz, ohg vgf vapbzcyrgryl haqrefgbbq, ol obgu gur punenpgref naq zlfrys (gur nhqvrapr), cebonoyl vagragvbanyyl. Fhssvpr gb fnl, jvgubhg n tenfc bs gur shgher, gnyxvat gb gur nyvraf vf qvssvph…

I've never seen rot 13 spoiler format before, so thanks for that :)

It was a very strong tradition on Usenet!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROT13#Usage

Re: Quick, How Might the Alien Spacecraft Work?

#58

Oh, but the polygonal "analysis" overlayed on that circular splotch with the drip marks as an alien's "handwriting" example is corny beyond words. Correlating an arbitrary set of points on splashy drippy smears, and eureka! It's a symbol for the global landing sites across seven continents? Yeah right. That leap in counter-intuitive conceptualization is on the level of bat shark repellant, or Roland Emerich's super c…

To me, they looked strikingly like the circles people draw as a Zen exercise.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ens%C5%8D

(Not too similar to how they were described in the story.)

Re: Quick, How Might the Alien Spacecraft Work?

#59
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I've read almost all his books, there's still a couple sitting on my Kindle. I disagree with seeing these books as bleak, or indeed anything by Banks (it could be because our definitions of bleak differ, since I agree with you on the other values). The SF part is simply a setting for his strength, which is to detail and praise human character. For example, he continuously breaks the "rules of good writing" such…

Glad you like them, although I'm surprised — "bleak" doesn't even begin to describe some of the stuff in Banks' novels. I don't know if you've read the ones I mentioned, but [SPOILERS AHEAD] in Consider Phlebas, every main character dies, the protagonist's species goes extinct in the process, and the epilogue essentially summarizes the whole story as accomplishing absolutely nothing; in Use of Weapons, the protagonis…

I think I should be more specific with my definition of bleak.

It's possible to write a novel where the setting, and the story lead to dark places, and finish badly for the heroes, but without the heroes giving up on life or thinking. There are many instances in history of people standing their ground in hopeless circumstances.

In fiction, I think the best depiction of what I mean might be Letters from Iwo Jima (the movie, not the actual letters which are relatively sparse). Kuribayashi's character goes through hell consciously but his extraordinary resistance - down to refusing to banzai charge as is customary in those situations and instead patiently drawing out the fight to maximise enemy casualties, drawing out the pain for himself and his troops in the process - is a phenomenal description of character. It is specifically in Eastwood's depiction that this comes through although the real Kuribayashi was every bit the depicted one. So I do not consider the movie or the book "bleak" but incredibly awe-inspiring despite its content and ending for the protagonist.

Meanwhile, the main character in Ubik and most of PKD's novels is continuously failing to have any agency, thwarted by unknown and unbeatable forces until he just accepts his fate and stops moving. I always thought that this book in particular and PKD's work in general were close to depictions of depression, which is where the bleakness is. I'm in a rush right now so can't immediately come up with a good example but many modern works of fiction depict wonderful conditions and stories with very bleak characters incapable of appreciating their luck.

Re: Quick, How Might the Alien Spacecraft Work?

#60
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ooh, I have a treat for you! Peter Watts, known in the science fiction world as 'The Antidote for Optimism', has some of his novels online. I would strongly recommend his multiple award winning Blindsight : http://www.rifters.com/real/Blindsight.htm ...because it's fascinating first contact novel; crazy, well researched, aliens that are genuinely alien, and not quite as bleak as his other books. (Still quite bleak.)…

I was going to say two recent great first contact novels (showing you can still, in our era, do first contact in an original and intelligent manner) are Cixin Liu's Three Body trilogy and Peter Watts' work. I also think many of Charlie Stross' novels fit in there. For example, what they find on the other side of the wormhole modem in Accelerando counts as a "first contact" of sorts... and it is definitely original. C…

>Cixin Liu's Three Body trilogy

Man... I've been trying to get started on it for months! My eye was caught by it at random in the "New" section of my local library, and then the jacket held me when it said (paraphrased) that it had basically won every Chinese SF award there is. The book was the 2nd of the series, though, and the 1st was checked out...

It's been completely checked out every time I've been in a library since then, and I've been to three different ones.

I guess it must be good? Your mention of it only adds fuel to the fire. At some point I'll be intentional enough about it enough to place a hold or buy them, I guess.

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