A river of lost souls runs through western Colorado • Hacker News Board

Re: A river of lost souls runs through western Colorado

#71

Post by throwanem » Sun, Nov 13, 2016, 6:20 AM UTC

noobermin wrote: post #69

xherberta wrote: post #33

“It’s really hard to withdraw from antidepressants,” said New York psychiatrist and pharmacology expert Julie Holland. In some cases, “people feel like cold water is running down their spine. They can feel their brain sloshing around, or electric zaps in their head.” Dang. If it's true as claimed that medications only help half the time, this seems like a strong encouragement to try things like exercise, yoga, and li…

May I note there is one drug that is relatively safe from addiction and unhealthy side-effects, and it is good that since last Tuesday, it is becoming legal in more places.

It can also enormously exacerbate symptoms of depression, and despite claims often made by its cheerleaders is no more a panacea than exercise, SSRIs, or indeed anything else.

Re: A river of lost souls runs through western Colorado

#72

Post by zepto » Sun, Nov 13, 2016, 6:24 AM UTC

Retric wrote: post #57

zepto wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice strawman. I did not suggest that people should turn down medication, or refuse treatment. I didn't say anything other than that medication doesn't cure depression - which I stand behind. Let me turn the tables on your indignance for a moment - why don't you care about the causes of depression? If the incidence is on the rise, the causes must be getting stronger. How can you condone simply restoring people to pro…

You are trying to redefine terms here. Depression is not the same as the underlying cause of Depression. You can go from Depressed to not Depressed without becoming normal or happy. Further, it's not clear that the actual incidence is on the rise or if this is reversion to the mean etc. We have shifted what people call Depression and how willing people are to seek treatment. The age adjusted suicide rate was actually…

It's actually unclear what your argument is here. Remember that these comments are in response to an article about rising incidence of depression treated with multiple medications.

It sounds like for some reason you are now just trying to say that depression isn't really on the increase in certain places.

Why would you say that?

Re: A river of lost souls runs through western Colorado

#73

Post by ashleypt » Sun, Nov 13, 2016, 6:27 AM UTC

zepto wrote: post #53

idle_processor wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You made a claim: "medications cannot cure [depression]." The burden of proof is with you, not with savanaly.

Actually no, the burden of proof is not with me. I am claiming that something doesn't exist - I.e. A medication that cures depression. This is similar to saying 'there are no unicorns'. Neither statement can be proven by citation since there is always the possibility that a unicorn (or a medication that cures depression) has been overlooked. If there is such a medication, it should be trivial for savanaly to point it…

I think a lot of people are getting confused about 'cure' vs 'management.' In my case it helped with neither.

SSRIs only /treat/ (not cure) a deficiency of serotonin, which for some people is all they need. I think some people have a strong genetic predisposition to depression, however that doesn't mean "therefore medication."

But depression comes in a lot more forms than just a simple serotonin deficiency, it's also thought that dopamine and norepinephrine play important roles. Personally, antidepressants never helped me, though a combination of physical exercise (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurobiological_effects_of_phy... - seriously read that, I used to think exercise was just about living longer and being "healthy" in some abstract sense, which were the opposite of what I wanted at the time) and meditation has helped. It hasn't made me happier but I think it's effectively treated my depression.

When someone doesn't have the ability to "lift" themselves out of their depression, there isn't suddenly a binary "either they need an SSRI/SNRI or RIP tough luck". Some people have hypothyroidism (this was my case) and no amount of psychoactive drugs is going to help with that because the neurotransmitters aren't even being manufactured in the first place and even if they were you'd barely have the energy to utilize them. Other people just don't respond to SSRIs but would still respond to the massive boost of not just serotonin but dopamine and norepinephrine caused by daily (especially aerobic or HIIT) exercise (it also rewires the reward centers and dozens of other things, read that article). Some people might have bottled up emotions or physical influences increasing their cortisol - high cortisol can make you feel depressed too. Meditating lowers that and brings out your emotions so you can cry if needed (which FURTHER decreases cortisol). That was kind of the last component for me.

Some depressed people need someone to not just give up after trying an SSRI but actively get them doing the lifestyle changes, whether that's self-applied in CBT as in Feeling Good, exercise, meditation, getting out more, whatever. Like they seriously need to be guided to do it in real time, they can't just be expected to even remember to do it. Also blood work and hormone tests are simple to do - it might just be a lack of micronutrients or hyper/hypothyroidism (especially in this age group of middle aged women. personally I'm 20f)

Re: A river of lost souls runs through western Colorado

#74

Post by zepto » Sun, Nov 13, 2016, 6:28 AM UTC

chc wrote: post #50

zepto wrote: post #7

Depression is not caused by a deficiency of medications, but by a deficiency of hope, so medications cannot cure it.

That's pretty specious. Headaches aren't caused by a deficiency of ibuprofen, but ibuprofen can still be very effective at treating them.

If you get headaches every day, ibuprofen may reduce the impact, but there is a good chance you have a serious condition that isn't being treated.

Re: A river of lost souls runs through western Colorado

#75

Post by noobermin » Sun, Nov 13, 2016, 7:16 AM UTC

throwanem wrote: post #71

noobermin wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May I note there is one drug that is relatively safe from addiction and unhealthy side-effects, and it is good that since last Tuesday, it is becoming legal in more places.

It can also enormously exacerbate symptoms of depression, and despite claims often made by its cheerleaders is no more a panacea than exercise, SSRIs, or indeed anything else.

Yeah, did a quick google, only reputable thing I could find is this[0].

Yes, a tired meme, but what is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence...and at a rung above no evidence, can be eviscerated with a link from a first pass at a google search.

[0] http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/depression/exp...

Re: A river of lost souls runs through western Colorado

#76

Post by findyoucef » Sun, Nov 13, 2016, 7:41 AM UTC

Having traveled through this area of colorado, I'm not surprised that depression runs rampant. There is literally nothing out there, no industry, no jobs, nothing. When travel through these towns it's as if you travel back in time and the majority of these people are stuck there. They have no way out. I'm not sure what solution is for towns like these.

Re: A river of lost souls runs through western Colorado

#77

Post by fapjacks » Sun, Nov 13, 2016, 7:46 AM UTC

Bluestrike2 wrote: post #61

fapjacks wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me, as someone that's been through it, and as someone that other people in my group of friends come to for help, the thing about exercise, cleanliness, and diet is that you're right, it is a hard lifestyle change. For most people . But I notice that almost everyone gets to a point when they hit their own personal rock-bottom, and they're willing to try anything. One of my best friends said something similar when…

Much of that pushback is because that same advice can be twisted into a sort of "just will the depression away" suggestion that's kind of tone deaf and insulting to people suffering from depression. It's not uncommon for people to say exactly that, as if it's little more than a light switch that needs to be flicked off. And most of the time, those sorts of comments are pretty patronizing, along the lines of "just man…

This is the other thing I don't understand. People seem to have it all figured out, when it comes to other people's feelings. I'm not sure where in my description you get the impression that I don't know what depression is like. I wasn't hitting rock bottom after a bad week at the office. I was laying on my living room floor drinking for a couple of months after my fourth combat tour. When I tell people to try taking a shower, doing some laundry, exercising, and eating something healthy, it's because it works as well as anything that isn't time -- which, again, is the only real cure. It took four years for me to get back to a point where I could have a bad week at the office.

Re: A river of lost souls runs through western Colorado

#78

Post by kennethh » Sun, Nov 13, 2016, 9:52 AM UTC

Am I the only one who react when they write in the article

"Although more men than women take their own lives, the rate of suicide has nearly doubled among middle-aged white women since 1999..."

And the whole article is about women who take suicide. The writer is a woman but this is typical for big publishers like Washington Press. They very seldom write about mens problems and challenges.

Re: A river of lost souls runs through western Colorado

#79

Post by jhayward » Sun, Nov 13, 2016, 10:47 AM UTC

ChrisNorstrom wrote: post #58

http://www.livescience.com/50813-low-oxygen-increase-depress... High altitutes can increase suicide and depression in certain people. While in others, they get a sense of feeling "at home".

Altitude apparently shows up both as an increase in depression and a decrease in ADHD. One researcher hypothesizes that altitude affects both serotonin and dopamine production, decreasing serotonin and increasing dopamine.

https://mic.com/articles/104096/there-s-a-suicide-epidemic-i...

Re: A river of lost souls runs through western Colorado

#80

Post by bcook » Sun, Nov 13, 2016, 11:51 AM UTC

duaneb wrote: post #59

Bluestrike2 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially for depression, prescribing medications is about stabilizing a patient's mental health and building a safe platform from which the patient can work to minimize the negative consequences of their depression (or many other mental illnesses, for that matter) on their daily life. No psychiatrist is going to suggest that there's a magic pill, dosage, or regimen that will make the depression go away. What medica…

I agree with what you said. Of course, I've also heard psychiatrists call me irresponsible for going off medication that was actively holding me back from the energy and motivation I need to work well (and feel good about my life). There is certainly a diversity of opinion amongst practicing psychiatrists even what the role of the medication is.

Did you go off the medication without any input or supervision from a doctor? I've had doctors accuse me of being irresponsible for doing that, and I have to agree.