Facebook admits it must do more to stop the spread of misinformation • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook admits it must do more to stop the spread of misinformation

#631

Post by DominikR » Sat, Nov 12, 2016, 11:53 AM UTC

JabavuAdams wrote: post #607

DominikR wrote: post #602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter if I am rational or not, it is my freedom to consume information from whichever source I prefer just as it doesn't matter if it's justified to spend double the money on an Apple product over something from a competitor. It's also irrelevant how you would like people to be (more rational, empathetic and so on), actually no one on this planet even cares about your opinion on that matter enough to actu…

We've learned enough neuroscience to know that humans make predictable systemic errors in judgement. This is when pursuing their own preferences, not someone else's preferences. This has real effects that harm other people. Do what you want to yourself. The problem is when you harm others due to your own ignorance or avoidable biases. None of the big bad movements you mention were genuinely trying to make humans into…

> This has real effects that harm other people.

That's why we have courts where you can claim damages.

> None of the big bad movements you mention were genuinely trying to make humans into better thinkers. In fact, they all relied on humans not being such great thinkers.

Oh really? The Soviet man, the Übermensch as understood by the Nazis and all similar Socialist concepts are then completely new to you? Some of these concepts are pretty close to what you described a person should be like.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Soviet_man

So it seems to me that you basically share many of the views of a Hitler or a Stalin on questions like these.

Re: Facebook admits it must do more to stop the spread of misinformation

#632

Post by JabavuAdams » Sat, Nov 12, 2016, 2:45 PM UTC

DominikR wrote: post #631

JabavuAdams wrote: post #607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've learned enough neuroscience to know that humans make predictable systemic errors in judgement. This is when pursuing their own preferences, not someone else's preferences. This has real effects that harm other people. Do what you want to yourself. The problem is when you harm others due to your own ignorance or avoidable biases. None of the big bad movements you mention were genuinely trying to make humans into…

> This has real effects that harm other people. That's why we have courts where you can claim damages. > None of the big bad movements you mention were genuinely trying to make humans into better thinkers. In fact, they all relied on humans not being such great thinkers. Oh really? The Soviet man, the Übermensch as understood by the Nazis and all similar Socialist concepts are then completely new to you? Some of thes…

You seem to be pattern matching on certain features and neglecting that details matter.

How can conscientious teachers or coaches exist in your worldview?

Surely educators are all evil because they dare to seek to improve people. Education has been used as a pretext to imprison people in oppressive regimes therefore education is evil. Absurd!

Re: Facebook admits it must do more to stop the spread of misinformation

#633

Post by DominikR » Sat, Nov 12, 2016, 6:06 PM UTC

JabavuAdams wrote: post #632

DominikR wrote: post #631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This has real effects that harm other people. That's why we have courts where you can claim damages. > None of the big bad movements you mention were genuinely trying to make humans into better thinkers. In fact, they all relied on humans not being such great thinkers. Oh really? The Soviet man, the Übermensch as understood by the Nazis and all similar Socialist concepts are then completely new to you? Some of thes…

You seem to be pattern matching on certain features and neglecting that details matter. How can conscientious teachers or coaches exist in your worldview? Surely educators are all evil because they dare to seek to improve people. Education has been used as a pretext to imprison people in oppressive regimes therefore education is evil. Absurd!

I have no issue with education and teaching without coercion, what you are proposing though is use of force to prevent spread of information you do not like or that might cause people to reject your ideology.

This is the real issue here. You are arguing in favour of using force (the basis of Socialism) while I'm arguing for freedom. (the basis of Capitalism)

And please don't tell me that censorship or regulating media isn't really using force. You go break censorship laws in countries that have them and lets see what they will do to you.

Re: Facebook admits it must do more to stop the spread of misinformation

#634

Post by hueving » Sat, Nov 12, 2016, 7:22 PM UTC

quirkafleeg wrote: post #534

hueving wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment implies that the commentor was axe-grinding with women in general. The complaint was about two particular women writers at the guardian using their own sex and feminism as a shield against criticism and fuel for their own click bait.

> Your comment implies that the commentor was axe-grinding with women in general. The complaint was about two particular women writers at the guardian using their own sex and feminism as a shield against criticism and fuel for their own click bait. So it's okay for you to infer what other people mean, but not okay for me to do it? Where did I say "women in general"? Why would my post imply what he said, when everyone…

He has a problem with two women. It's you that made it ambiguous by claiming he had a problem "with women".

Re: Facebook admits it must do more to stop the spread of misinformation

#635

Post by kbutler » Sat, Nov 12, 2016, 7:49 PM UTC

MarkPNeyer wrote: post #621

kbutler wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To determine correctness, the adjudicator requires knowledge outside the system. In the scientific method, this is done by generating falsifiable hypotheses and performing the experiment. Failing that, you have to fall back on heuristics, like "what I already believe", Occam's razor (simplest theory consistent with observations wins), or reliance on authority/consensus. Consistency is simply majority wins, which comp…

> Consistency is simply majority wins, which completely stifles new ideas or minority opinions. No isn't. You don't need to have a "non objective view of the truth" - i..e you don't need the ability to ask the system "Is this statement true?" You just need the ability to ask the system "Will I think this is true, given the other things I have claimed to be true?" Maintaining internal complexity of your own claim grap…

Ah, you're only speaking of temporal consistency (or "constancy" - does the source's statement change over time).

I was speaking of consistency with the general body of knowledge in the system, (correspondence?).

In the specific case of evaluating major news sources for trust, I think the vast majority of their statements are never retracted/changed, and therefore they would rate highly on an overall "constancy" scale as well. Their many statements about Trump's likelihood of winning were very constant as well - for months they said he'd lose, then they changed, and forever after they will say he won.

Sounds very temporally consistent, with just a single change.

Not sure if the adjudicator could narrow it just to "trust of the source's future predictions about politics", but basically the whole country just got a negative feedback on the trust weighting for major media in that domain.

Re: Facebook admits it must do more to stop the spread of misinformation

#636

Post by mememachine » Sat, Nov 12, 2016, 10:23 PM UTC

gdubs wrote: post #588

mememachine wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Labeling something "misinformation" is not an objective act, period. Facebook will be engaging in censorship if they pursue this.

Objectivity is literally about things being factual regardless of subjective opinions. There's nuance in the world, but if someone says "The earth is flat", it's not dystopian for a newspaper or online newsfeed to editorialize and minimize those claims.

its impossible to label an article presenting a theory or perspective as non-factual. no one ever said it was fact. anyone trying to claim it is fact is a fool.

Facts are things like:

I have 20$ in my pocket

Creationism isnt misinformation, even if it is lacking in evidence.

Re: Facebook admits it must do more to stop the spread of misinformation

#637

Post by mrle » Sat, Nov 12, 2016, 11:21 PM UTC

what is misinformation? what is false today can be true tomorrow.

Re: Facebook admits it must do more to stop the spread of misinformation

#638

Post by emodendroket » Sun, Nov 13, 2016, 3:40 AM UTC

linkregister wrote: post #614

emodendroket wrote: post #598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course there are multiple elements of the ruling class with different interests. But I think it's also safe to say there are a lot of issues where Republicans and Democrats are in complete agreement and their constituents are not.

What would be an example of one of these issues?

How to handle Wall Street post-meltdown or various military ventures seem like the most glaring examples to me.

Re: Facebook admits it must do more to stop the spread of misinformation

#639

Post by intended » Sun, Nov 13, 2016, 12:58 PM UTC

Florin_Andrei wrote: post #96

nostrademons wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a problem with human wetware - there are several cognitive biases [1][2][3][4] that make people engage more strongly with ideas that fit their preconceptions and discount ideas that don't. Add information-sharing to the mix and the aggregate effect you get is large information cascades that fracture the population into tribes that believe things not necessarily because they're true, but because they are state…

> The fix is for people to be aware of these cognitive biases in themselves, to actively seek out information that differs from their preconceptions, and to challenge inaccurate information (with evidence!) when presented with it. You are right, but I hope you are aware that this would require a giant leap to an essentially superhuman state of rationality and clear thinking for a vast majority of people. Just stop fo…

Hah! It's worse.

As a kid I learnt this and tried to be as rational and aware of my fallibalities as possible.

That makes you an alien to normal human beings. Conversation becomes impossible, processing fast enough becomes impossible, and the penalties for acting weird and communicating weird are huge.

Instead you need to find a way to act in a manner that allows you to blend in with people.

Re: Facebook admits it must do more to stop the spread of misinformation

#640

Post by intended » Sun, Nov 13, 2016, 1:10 PM UTC

ewzimm wrote: post #199

nostrademons wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a problem with human wetware - there are several cognitive biases [1][2][3][4] that make people engage more strongly with ideas that fit their preconceptions and discount ideas that don't. Add information-sharing to the mix and the aggregate effect you get is large information cascades that fracture the population into tribes that believe things not necessarily because they're true, but because they are state…

This is absolutely the right answer, but maybe Facebook can do some things to help. It's possible to gamify the process of learning to spot biases by presenting people with situations and getting them to think critically to solve the biases or fallacies. Especially on Facebook, people love filling out questionnaires that tell them something about themselves. I'm not saying that one smart game is going to fix the enti…

It doesn't work that way. It assumes that what people are doing is wrong - it's not. The mental overhead to assess everything clinically is sufficient that faster thinkers can just outrun you. People/brains are making trade offs to deal with the world around them.

Other humans are taking advantage of those gaps to mobilize votes or advertisements.

There's no way out and I've been wondering when people would realize the depth and intricacy of the mess we're in. Hopefully people pay more attention to the way cognitive cheat code are being abused.

Hopefully a protocol to deal with it can be made.