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U.S. judge rejects World Chess bid to block websites from airing moves

reuters.com

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Re: U.S. judge rejects World Chess bid to block websites from airing moves

#51

Post by alasdair_ »

gnicholas wrote: post #38
freditup wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your analogy is wrong. Many websites broadcast live "play-by-play" info on MLB, NFL, NBA, and NHL games. These are typically done, for example, by showing a graphic of a strike zone and where pitches are located as they are pitched. However, the actual game audio and video is not broadcasted. I don't believe you need any sort of license to display this information (correct me here if I'm wrong). As far as I c…

When I watch MLB games streamed from mlb.tv, there is a warning at the end that says you may not reproduce or transmit the game or descriptions thereof (or something like that). I don't remember the exact language, but I do remember being struck by the fact that it extended beyond the game itself. I would imagine that the websites that give play-by-play info may have paid for the right to publish information about th…

They can claim these things but I am not certain such things will hold up in court.

Re: U.S. judge rejects World Chess bid to block websites from airing moves

#52

Post by mattkrause »

njharman wrote: post #39
ambirex wrote: post #7

The main difference between this and other sports/events is the moves are facts. They wouldn't be able to broadcast a live video feed. But you can copyright facts.

You can copyright a particular arrangement of facts (or other non-copyright protected content) where that arrangement required creative thought (even if "arrangement" is just layout as simple as page numbers/breaks). Notes are facts, but sheet music (and other representations) of sequence of notes, aka a song, are copyrightable. Why are a sequence of moves not the same? This ruling seems more about biases people have…

No, you can't copy facts, period.

You can copyright facts that have been 'fixed in a tangible medium of expression' as long as there's some minimal element of creativity.

Sheet music is copyrightable because the notes have been "fixed" onto a piece of paper. A recording of a band is copyrightable because the music has been "fixed" in the record, tape, CD, or other file.

You can copyright a specific description of a chess match, as I've fixed it here: "You could hear a pin drop as Kasparov proceeded with the Spanish Opening, a favorite for the Russian..."

What you can't do is use copyright to prevent someone else from extracting the facts from this description (e4 e5, etc) and presenting them in some other way.

Re: U.S. judge rejects World Chess bid to block websites from airing moves

#53

Post by CJKinni »

A lot of the comments here on copyright seem to be looking for answers to distinguish this from other copyright issues. Rather than summing up every copyright argument for or against, I thought I'd link to a fairly relevant case: Feist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist_Publications,_Inc.,_v._R....

Feist is a case where a phone book company stole the data in a phone book, and began reselling it. It deals with publication of facts, and is a situation where there's a reasonable public policy argument for incentivising the private company's work collection of phone number data. It's a commonly taught fundamental Copyright claim that is a great starting point for those interested in researching further.

Re: U.S. judge rejects World Chess bid to block websites from airing moves

#54

Post by gnicholas »

ChicagoBoy11 wrote: post #48
gnicholas wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I watch MLB games streamed from mlb.tv, there is a warning at the end that says you may not reproduce or transmit the game or descriptions thereof (or something like that). I don't remember the exact language, but I do remember being struck by the fact that it extended beyond the game itself. I would imagine that the websites that give play-by-play info may have paid for the right to publish information about th…

You are correct, but there is also a distinction between the posturing of sports giants like the MLB and the NFL and what would actually hold up in court in a possible legal challenge. My media law professor seemed pretty sure that, in a vast majority of these cases, those "prohibitions" would not hold up.

I'd be curious to know why they wouldn't hold up—did your professor give a reason or mention any particular cases that led him/her to reach this conclusion?

In my experience (lawyer in Palo Alto for 7 years), parties can agree by contract to do or not do many many things. Even provisions that limit legal recourse, like the much-decried mandatory arbitration clauses [1] have held up all the way to the US Supreme Court. I would be very interested to know what legal basis there would be to invalidate a license agreement that says: you can have access to this content but only if you promise not to tell other people about it.

1: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/01/business/dealbook/arbitrat...

Re: U.S. judge rejects World Chess bid to block websites from airing moves

#55

Post by [deleted] »

CJKinni wrote: post #53

A lot of the comments here on copyright seem to be looking for answers to distinguish this from other copyright issues. Rather than summing up every copyright argument for or against, I thought I'd link to a fairly relevant case: Feist. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist_Publications,_Inc.,_v._R... . Feist is a case where a phone book company stole the data in a phone book, and began reselling it. It deals with publ…

[deleted]

Re: U.S. judge rejects World Chess bid to block websites from airing moves

#56

Post by desdiv »

CJKinni wrote: post #53

A lot of the comments here on copyright seem to be looking for answers to distinguish this from other copyright issues. Rather than summing up every copyright argument for or against, I thought I'd link to a fairly relevant case: Feist. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist_Publications,_Inc.,_v._R... . Feist is a case where a phone book company stole the data in a phone book, and began reselling it. It deals with publ…

Your link doesn't work (HN ate the last period up). Here's a working link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist_Publications,_Inc.,_v._R...

Re: U.S. judge rejects World Chess bid to block websites from airing moves

#57

Post by [deleted] »

CJKinni wrote: post #53

A lot of the comments here on copyright seem to be looking for answers to distinguish this from other copyright issues. Rather than summing up every copyright argument for or against, I thought I'd link to a fairly relevant case: Feist. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist_Publications,_Inc.,_v._R... . Feist is a case where a phone book company stole the data in a phone book, and began reselling it. It deals with publ…

[deleted]

Re: U.S. judge rejects World Chess bid to block websites from airing moves

#58

Post by epmatsw »

greglindahl wrote: post #46
kzrdude wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Filming a football field is also uncreative, isn't it?

That's a well-settled issue. Are you really claiming that writing down the positions of chess pieces is similar to operating a video camera looking at 3D objects? On the other hand, you might want to check out Corel v. Bridgeman. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridgeman_Art_Library_v._Corel... .

From a position of total legal ignorance, I don't see a meaningful distinction. In both scenarios, you're recording an account of someone else's performance with enough fidelity for someone to know what's happening in the game. In the linked case, the issue seemed to be the the recorded content had no copyright, so I don't get why that's relevant? Very interested in a more detailed answer though :)

Re: U.S. judge rejects World Chess bid to block websites from airing moves

#59

Post by School-Cotton »

primitivesuave wrote: post #34
logicallee wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your conclusion but not your reasoning. (you accidentally wrote "can" for "can't" at the end though, maybe you have time to correct it.) So this is why I don't agree with your reasoning: The fact is that Ambirex's comment at 11:22 PM Friday, November 11, 2016 UTC began with a capital T as his first move. Though he could have left it at that and left his opponents to reply, this was not his complete comme…

Why was this downvoted? I found it to be a pretty interesting perspective, although I do think the equation of letters in a sentence to moves in a chess game is pretty weak. Moves made in a chess game are events that factually happened in the past - copyrighting them would be akin to copyrighting a certain historical event, such that only a copyright holder is given privilege to state information about it. Letters, w…

It's a historical fact that "primitivesuave" wrote down the sequence of letters "Why was this downvoted? I found it to be a pretty interesting perspective...", but if I published it, I'd still be violating your copyright.

What's the difference between that and a chess game (which takes significantly more intellectual effort than a messageboard comment)

Re: U.S. judge rejects World Chess bid to block websites from airing moves

#60

Post by School-Cotton »

maaaats wrote: post #4
Lordarminius wrote: post #2

There is a glaring inconsistency in this ruling when compared to the status quo for other sports. In baseball, football the Olympics etc the sponsors hold the broadcast rights and do with it as they deem fit. Why is this same right denied to the organizers of the World Chess Championship?

Because it's not the broadcast. This is comparable to newspapers not being allowed to report on goals in a soccer match or have any kind of live coverage (but still not showing the broadcast).

Except the moves in a chess game are deliberately chosen in a process involving nothing but intellect and creativity.

Scoring goals in a soccer match is something the players try to influence but it's ultimately outside of their control. I think publishing goals in soccer are more akin to publishing vague information like "Black lost his bishop on turn 4" but not the specific sequence of moves.

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