U.S. judge rejects World Chess bid to block websites from airing moves • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. judge rejects World Chess bid to block websites from airing moves

#41

Post by Retric » Sat, Nov 12, 2016, 12:48 AM UTC

logicallee wrote: post #31

greglindahl wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying that playing chess is an uncreative task - it's very creative. Describing the chessboard position is an uncreative task. Evaluating the relative strength of the players' positions can be creative. But the position of the pieces? No.

You are not getting a very important distinction: no creative effort (not even a kernel of creativity[1]) is embodied in telephone numbers. There is something though about the creative expression of chess board positions: they are EXTREMELY limited in terms of entropy. In coordinate notation 64*64 = 4096 choices would define either side's move, so given a dictionary of 4096 words, any typical chess game would be unde…

Chess is far more constrained than that. Pawns generally have 0 or 1 move with the maximum possible of 3 moves followed by piece selection which is knight or queen as bishops and rooks have the subset of a queens moves. There are a maximum of 8 pawns. Thus (8 * 3 * 2) = 48

Kings have a maximum of 8 moves. 2 Rooks a maximum of 14 = 28, 2 bishops 12 = 24, and 2 knights 8 = 16, queen = 36. And this is individually on an actual board there is often less then 50 legal choices (ex: 20 for opening) and the average game is 40 move (pairs).

Thus you could encode most chess matches as a tweet.

Re: U.S. judge rejects World Chess bid to block websites from airing moves

#42

Post by mynameisvlad » Sat, Nov 12, 2016, 12:49 AM UTC

DrScump wrote: post #40

In broadcast and print media, there are "facts" which are routinely embargoed (they cannot be released before a certain date/time). Financial results from publicly-traded companies are similarly embargoed, even though they be simple facts. Why can't this mechanism be employed as a condition of being permitted to attend the event?

Embargoes aren't rooted in laws, though. There's nothing stopping a news outlet from breaking embargo other than the reprecussions from the other company, like not getting news early in the future.

Edit: Wow, I need some sleep. I misread the OP, and the Wikipedia article to which I linked. I'll keep the comment up for posterity, but, yes, the company itself can put limitations in place but it's incredibly difficult to enforce.

Re: U.S. judge rejects World Chess bid to block websites from airing moves

#43

Post by valleyer » Sat, Nov 12, 2016, 12:51 AM UTC

cheald wrote: post #6

csmajorfive wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they hold the rights to recounting what happened play-by-play without using any images or media from the event? That seems more comparable here.

They certainly claim to. The NFL loudly proclaims that "Any other use of this telecast or of any pictures, descriptions, or accounts of the game without the NFL's consent, is prohibited."

No idea why you are being downvoted. Regardless of whether it's actually enforceable, this threat is definitely aired during every NFL game. MLB too: "This copyrighted telecast is presented by authority of the Office of the Commissioner of Baseball. It may not be reproduced or retransmitted in any form, and the accounts and descriptions of this game may not be disseminated without express written consent."

Re: U.S. judge rejects World Chess bid to block websites from airing moves

#44

Post by dmurray » Sat, Nov 12, 2016, 12:54 AM UTC

DrScump wrote: post #40

In broadcast and print media, there are "facts" which are routinely embargoed (they cannot be released before a certain date/time). Financial results from publicly-traded companies are similarly embargoed, even though they be simple facts. Why can't this mechanism be employed as a condition of being permitted to attend the event?

That is one of the mechanisms that they were relying on. Anyone attending the event and relaying moves is likely in breach of contract, and at least could be thrown out of the venue. Likewise, anyone who signed up for the official feed and then shared the moves is violating the website's terms and conditions and could get their account closed. But it only takes one anonymous user to sign up and report the moves to other sites.

Re: U.S. judge rejects World Chess bid to block websites from airing moves

#45

Post by Retric » Sat, Nov 12, 2016, 12:55 AM UTC

slavik81 wrote: post #36

greglindahl wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying that playing chess is an uncreative task - it's very creative. Describing the chessboard position is an uncreative task. Evaluating the relative strength of the players' positions can be creative. But the position of the pieces? No.

Sure, but if choosing your moves is a creative task, then why wouldn't the moves be jointly copyrighted by the two players? What's the difference between: 1. e4 e5 2. Qh5 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6?? 4. Qxf7# and: fmt: .string "Hello World!\n" .balign 4 .global main main: stp x29, x30, [sp, -16]! mov x29, sp adrp x0, fmt add x0, x0, :lo12:fmt bl printf ldp x29, x30, [sp], 16 ret if both are the result of a creative process?

Events that happens are facts, creative representation of facts is copywritable but not mechanical translations. Thus you can't get a copywrite on the S&P's closing value, but you can on a story about it. Further, a program has multiple possible representations, you can copywrite the code in one of them, but not gain a separate one for the compiled code.

PS: There are also many ways to generate code that don't create a copywrite.

Re: U.S. judge rejects World Chess bid to block websites from airing moves

#46

Post by greglindahl » Sat, Nov 12, 2016, 12:59 AM UTC

kzrdude wrote: post #30

greglindahl wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying that playing chess is an uncreative task - it's very creative. Describing the chessboard position is an uncreative task. Evaluating the relative strength of the players' positions can be creative. But the position of the pieces? No.

Filming a football field is also uncreative, isn't it?

That's a well-settled issue. Are you really claiming that writing down the positions of chess pieces is similar to operating a video camera looking at 3D objects?

On the other hand, you might want to check out Corel v. Bridgeman.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridgeman_Art_Library_v._Corel....

Re: U.S. judge rejects World Chess bid to block websites from airing moves

#47

Post by logicallee » Sat, Nov 12, 2016, 1:00 AM UTC

Retric wrote: post #41

logicallee wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not getting a very important distinction: no creative effort (not even a kernel of creativity[1]) is embodied in telephone numbers. There is something though about the creative expression of chess board positions: they are EXTREMELY limited in terms of entropy. In coordinate notation 64*64 = 4096 choices would define either side's move, so given a dictionary of 4096 words, any typical chess game would be unde…

Chess is far more constrained than that. Pawns generally have 0 or 1 move with the maximum possible of 3 moves followed by piece selection which is knight or queen as bishops and rooks have the subset of a queens moves. There are a maximum of 8 pawns. Thus (8 * 3 * 2) = 48 Kings have a maximum of 8 moves. 2 Rooks a maximum of 14 = 28, 2 bishops 12 = 24, and 2 knights 8 = 16, queen = 36. And this is individually on an…

I appreciate your analysis - however you need to compare it not with the length of a Tweet but rather with the entropy in a melody: whereas there are typically "less than 50 legal choices" and an average game is "40 moves", a melody that has been held to be protected by copyright has fewer than 50 legal choices for each note, and requires fewer than 40 notes (by far) to be protected by copyright.

I'd like to have you come back and compare chess games as actually played, with what has been held to be copyrighted simple melodies. I'd like to see that comparison and think you're good to go to make it.

Re: U.S. judge rejects World Chess bid to block websites from airing moves

#48

Post by ChicagoBoy11 » Sat, Nov 12, 2016, 1:01 AM UTC

gnicholas wrote: post #38

freditup wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your analogy is wrong. Many websites broadcast live "play-by-play" info on MLB, NFL, NBA, and NHL games. These are typically done, for example, by showing a graphic of a strike zone and where pitches are located as they are pitched. However, the actual game audio and video is not broadcasted. I don't believe you need any sort of license to display this information (correct me here if I'm wrong). As far as I c…

When I watch MLB games streamed from mlb.tv, there is a warning at the end that says you may not reproduce or transmit the game or descriptions thereof (or something like that). I don't remember the exact language, but I do remember being struck by the fact that it extended beyond the game itself. I would imagine that the websites that give play-by-play info may have paid for the right to publish information about th…

You are correct, but there is also a distinction between the posturing of sports giants like the MLB and the NFL and what would actually hold up in court in a possible legal challenge. My media law professor seemed pretty sure that, in a vast majority of these cases, those "prohibitions" would not hold up.

Re: U.S. judge rejects World Chess bid to block websites from airing moves

#49

Post by greglindahl » Sat, Nov 12, 2016, 1:02 AM UTC

smallnamespace wrote: post #24

Lordarminius wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah, a business model is more important than the non-copyrightable nature of facts. I fail to see your point. The law should be applied with a dose of common sense. The organizers are not barring anyone from the "facts" as you put it just trying to get a lead in broadcasting. The law upholds the rights of organizers of other sports eg football and boxing based on their peculiarities and in case you are not aware i…

Your argument can be summarized as that we should ignore what copyright law says because the consequence of the law is bad in this particular case for certain chess companies. That's neither a sane or reasonable way to make legal judgments. Can you show a sound legal argument why the judge's ruling was wrong? FYI, there used to be a 'hot news' doctrine that might have protected the chess moves (and the FIDE made this…

"Hot news" is a good time to remember that copyright is shaped not only by US copyright law, but also by common law and the 1st Amendment.

Re: U.S. judge rejects World Chess bid to block websites from airing moves

#50

Post by logicallee » Sat, Nov 12, 2016, 1:04 AM UTC

primitivesuave wrote: post #34

logicallee wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your conclusion but not your reasoning. (you accidentally wrote "can" for "can't" at the end though, maybe you have time to correct it.) So this is why I don't agree with your reasoning: The fact is that Ambirex's comment at 11:22 PM Friday, November 11, 2016 UTC began with a capital T as his first move. Though he could have left it at that and left his opponents to reply, this was not his complete comme…

Why was this downvoted? I found it to be a pretty interesting perspective, although I do think the equation of letters in a sentence to moves in a chess game is pretty weak. Moves made in a chess game are events that factually happened in the past - copyrighting them would be akin to copyrighting a certain historical event, such that only a copyright holder is given privilege to state information about it. Letters, w…

downvotes are probably because I could have taken on a legal perspective (but didn't), and I didn't talk about how much creativity goes into producing those facts. I want to be clear that I am fully behind the judge's choice: but he made it for pragmatic reasons, not because he couldn't have chosen for games to be copyrighted if he really wanted to. They could have been if he really wanted them to be, in the same way that simple melodies have been held to be copyrighted.

Where creative choices are incredibly constrained (as with a chess game -- there really isn't that much entropy going into one), or my example with simple melodies, the application of copyright becomes interesting.