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U.S. judge rejects World Chess bid to block websites from airing moves

reuters.com

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Re: U.S. judge rejects World Chess bid to block websites from airing moves

#21

Post by CalChris »

scott00 wrote: post #20

Anybody have a link to the complaint/application for a TRO? A lot of the comments here are talking about copyright law, but most protection or attempted protection of data is done with licensing agreements. I would guess FIDE could require the people viewing in person and on the FIDE website to agree to not disseminate accounts of the game as a condition of being allowed to watch. I'd be interested to learn if FIDE h…

I don't have that but the judge was pretty dismissive. From chessgames.com:

In a hearing late in the day prior to the first game of the match, U.S. District Judge Victor Marrero was not persuaded that organizers of the $1 million, 12-game tournament had a legal right to block the websites from disclosing the moves until after each game.(7) Rejecting virtually every argument that World Chess asserted, he said, "I know this area of the law very well."

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chess.pl?tid=88069&crosstable...

Re: U.S. judge rejects World Chess bid to block websites from airing moves

#22

Post by slavik81 »

greglindahl wrote: post #17
logicallee wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your conclusion but not your reasoning. (you accidentally wrote "can" for "can't" at the end though, maybe you have time to correct it.) So this is why I don't agree with your reasoning: The fact is that Ambirex's comment at 11:22 PM Friday, November 11, 2016 UTC began with a capital T as his first move. Though he could have left it at that and left his opponents to reply, this was not his complete comme…

Are you a copyright lawyer? I'm thinking not, because cases like Feist v. Rural Telephone make it pretty clear what "facts" mean in the context of things you can copyright. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist_Publications,_Inc.,_v._R... .

It's definitely not clear to me that playing chess is an uncreative task like compiling phone numbers. Though, perhaps I don't know enough about chess. This seems like an interesting case to me.

Re: U.S. judge rejects World Chess bid to block websites from airing moves

#23

Post by [deleted] »

Lordarminius wrote: post #19
greglindahl wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, a business model is more important than the non-copyrightable nature of facts. Good thing the judge understood the actual law, which is not concerned with business models.

> Yeah, a business model is more important than the non-copyrightable nature of facts. I fail to see your point. The law should be applied with a dose of common sense. The organizers are not barring anyone from the "facts" as you put it just trying to get a lead in broadcasting. The law upholds the rights of organizers of other sports eg football and boxing based on their peculiarities and in case you are not aware i…

[deleted]

Re: U.S. judge rejects World Chess bid to block websites from airing moves

#24

Post by smallnamespace »

Lordarminius wrote: post #19
greglindahl wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, a business model is more important than the non-copyrightable nature of facts. Good thing the judge understood the actual law, which is not concerned with business models.

> Yeah, a business model is more important than the non-copyrightable nature of facts. I fail to see your point. The law should be applied with a dose of common sense. The organizers are not barring anyone from the "facts" as you put it just trying to get a lead in broadcasting. The law upholds the rights of organizers of other sports eg football and boxing based on their peculiarities and in case you are not aware i…

Your argument can be summarized as that we should ignore what copyright law says because the consequence of the law is bad in this particular case for certain chess companies.

That's neither a sane or reasonable way to make legal judgments. Can you show a sound legal argument why the judge's ruling was wrong?

FYI, there used to be a 'hot news' doctrine that might have protected the chess moves (and the FIDE made this their argument), but it's been largely superseded or overturned [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_News_Service_v._...

Re: U.S. judge rejects World Chess bid to block websites from airing moves

#25

Post by greglindahl »

slavik81 wrote: post #22
greglindahl wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you a copyright lawyer? I'm thinking not, because cases like Feist v. Rural Telephone make it pretty clear what "facts" mean in the context of things you can copyright. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist_Publications,_Inc.,_v._R... .

It's definitely not clear to me that playing chess is an uncreative task like compiling phone numbers. Though, perhaps I don't know enough about chess. This seems like an interesting case to me.

I'm not saying that playing chess is an uncreative task - it's very creative. Describing the chessboard position is an uncreative task. Evaluating the relative strength of the players' positions can be creative. But the position of the pieces? No.

Re: U.S. judge rejects World Chess bid to block websites from airing moves

#26

Post by Retra »

Lordarminius wrote: post #2

There is a glaring inconsistency in this ruling when compared to the status quo for other sports. In baseball, football the Olympics etc the sponsors hold the broadcast rights and do with it as they deem fit. Why is this same right denied to the organizers of the World Chess Championship?

They have a right to the artifacts of their production - their specific footage of the event. They don't have a right to all possible descriptions of those events. That would be absurd - someone could sing "old MacDonald" and have it claimed that it is a codified description of the events of a game. But of course, they only have the rights to their description of the game.

Re: U.S. judge rejects World Chess bid to block websites from airing moves

#27

Post by jdoliner »

Lordarminius wrote: post #14
freditup wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your analogy is wrong. Many websites broadcast live "play-by-play" info on MLB, NFL, NBA, and NHL games. These are typically done, for example, by showing a graphic of a strike zone and where pitches are located as they are pitched. However, the actual game audio and video is not broadcasted. I don't believe you need any sort of license to display this information (correct me here if I'm wrong). As far as I c…

> I think the correct decision was made here. No it was not. It says in the article: Organizers ... failed to persuade a federal judge to block rival website operators from broadcasting chess moves ... The defendants also said that they would not simply be copying audiovisual content generated by World Chess, but displaying the moves on their own computerized chess board while adding commentary and analysis. The ruli…

Fortunately, the U.S. legal system does not afford corporations the right to a business model.

Re: U.S. judge rejects World Chess bid to block websites from airing moves

#28

Post by belorn »

Lordarminius wrote: post #14
freditup wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your analogy is wrong. Many websites broadcast live "play-by-play" info on MLB, NFL, NBA, and NHL games. These are typically done, for example, by showing a graphic of a strike zone and where pitches are located as they are pitched. However, the actual game audio and video is not broadcasted. I don't believe you need any sort of license to display this information (correct me here if I'm wrong). As far as I c…

> I think the correct decision was made here. No it was not. It says in the article: Organizers ... failed to persuade a federal judge to block rival website operators from broadcasting chess moves ... The defendants also said that they would not simply be copying audiovisual content generated by World Chess, but displaying the moves on their own computerized chess board while adding commentary and analysis. The ruli…

Take a sport like snooker and replace the footage with animated board which perfectly represent how the match is played. Would it be interesting enough to compete with the actually broadcast with video of the players and commentators?

Re: U.S. judge rejects World Chess bid to block websites from airing moves

#29

Post by ubernostrum »

Lordarminius wrote: post #2

There is a glaring inconsistency in this ruling when compared to the status quo for other sports. In baseball, football the Olympics etc the sponsors hold the broadcast rights and do with it as they deem fit. Why is this same right denied to the organizers of the World Chess Championship?

Plenty of third-party sites which don't hold any license from MLB, for example, will tell you "Currently 3-1, runner on 2nd, top of 8th inning, Smith, B. batting vs. Doe, J. pitching, count 1-2, last pitch 90mph called for strike on lower inside corner". And they'll update it with each pitch and each play.

The facts of the game are not copyrighted and not copyrightable, which is why sites can do this. Similarly, the moves of a chess game are facts which are not copyrighted and not copyrightable, which is why sites can tell you in real time who's playing and what moves have been made.

Re: U.S. judge rejects World Chess bid to block websites from airing moves

#30

Post by kzrdude »

greglindahl wrote: post #25
slavik81 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's definitely not clear to me that playing chess is an uncreative task like compiling phone numbers. Though, perhaps I don't know enough about chess. This seems like an interesting case to me.

I'm not saying that playing chess is an uncreative task - it's very creative. Describing the chessboard position is an uncreative task. Evaluating the relative strength of the players' positions can be creative. But the position of the pieces? No.

Filming a football field is also uncreative, isn't it?
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