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In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

nytimes.com

91–100 of 116 posts

Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#91
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://youtu.be/RzA4dCT4X0I Some people are way too eager to be victims.

I think you are making my point for me. Apparently the point of posting the video is that the person recording it thinks they have been harmed (I didn't watch the whole thing)? And that you disagree? That's exactly my point, you each have your own ideas of what harm is. What follows from that is that of course it will be messy to discuss. But it still stands that the core message of tolerance is that we should examin…

> But it still stands that the core message of tolerance is that we should examine things for harm and accept those things that minimize it, not that we should accept all things mindlessly.

The recorder of that video has gone on to create a fundraiser with two goals: 1) to defame the man in the video, and 2) to seek general recompense from the public for her harm.

I'm sure you watched enough of the video to get the gist of what happened, and any common-sense person would immediately dismiss her claims of harm. But by giving her a benefit of the doubt, by choosing to "examine" that situation far beyond its merits, she is given the platform and the opportunity to play the victim and in so doing simultaneously cause direct harm to another person and personally benefit from it.

Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#92
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>one of the most respected news sources Trump only has 20% chance of winning. Dow is going to tank a million points on Trump victory.

If they predict a 20% chance of rain, and it does rain, that doesn't show dishonesty. The second point needs a citation.

Can you not understand how that is not only ibtellectually dishonest, but a terrible analogy

Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#93
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When "harm" is in the eye of the beholder, anything can be rationalized as harmful for political gain.

OK, what do anti-gay-marriage people have to gain politically, if they got their way?

The undivided support of the state, which has a legitimate interest in helping make it possible for stable, settled families to produce new generations of citizens and thus to perpetuate itself. From the perspective of any system of rule, this is the purpose of marriage. Homosexual partnerships, which are incapable of producing children, thus are of no benefit to the state, and can only be an unproductive diversion of funds which otherwise would be allocated to the benefit of heterosexual marriages which can and often do produce children.

In the case where it's considered desirable to ensure that homosexual partners receive the same benefits of familial status (e.g. the commonly cited hospital visitation rights), without also including such partnerships in the financial benefits of heterosexual marriage, a federal civil union statute would easily suffice. Such things have been proposed many times, but invariably have been shot down from the left, rather than the right, as representative of "second-class citizen" status, just like "whites" and "coloreds" water fountains - a risible claim, especially in light of e.g. GLAD's explainer [1], in which, discounting the two already disposed of here, every reason cited in favor of "gay marriage", and against civil union, is at its base about money.

Such, at least, is the primary reason why I oppose the idea of "gay marriage", to say nothing of the Supreme Court's having recently discovered in the Constitution that there exists an inalienable right to same. This puts me in an apparently contradictory position, being that I am myself homosexual, but that contradiction exists only in the presence of an assumption that identity politics are the only valid sort.

Of course, to hear "gay rights" organizations tell it, that is precisely true, and we are not allowed to take a stance such as mine, or indeed any other that fails to correspond exactly with the current party line. To do so is derided [2] or pathologized [3] - or, of course, both. The possibility that we might have evaluated the cases for and against on their relative merit, and made our decisions accordingly, doesn't really enter into the discussion - and neither does the possibility that those who claim to speak and act on behalf of all homosexuals need not have their claims taken at face value by anyone, not even we whom they insist they defend.

[1] https://www.glad.org/uploads/docs/publications/cu-vs-marriag...

[2] http://www.out.com/news-opinion/2013/05/13/bret-easton-ellis...

[3] http://mashable.com/2014/06/25/internalized-homophobia-lgbt/...

Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#94
post #11
post #4

This article is from March 2015, and shows that the writing has been on the wall for quite a while. The "safe spaces" movement is a plague, and I am sick of it. I hold extremely diverse viewpoints which span the political spectrum. Socially liberal and fiscally conservative. How can liberals claim to be accepting of all viewpoints but, in reality, only accept those that align with their pseudo-personal-Utopia outlook…

I don't have a problem with safe spaces. To me, they're like office break rooms. Sometimes you just need a minute to disengage. But, if you're spending your whole day in there, I'm going to question why you show up to work in the first place.

Maybe they start as office break rooms, but they turn into gated communities and ghettos. The way to stop ghettos from forming, is to do the opposite of building gated communities, and instead subsidize housing in the wealthiest districts. Intellectual ghettos should be treated the same way. To prevent like minded hate spaces from forming, dont cast people you dont like, off to the side. Integrate dissent into every place you can. It will make us less partisan and more prepared to change our minds when introduced to evidence.

Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#95
post #65
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Safe spaces as I've seen them implemented are exclusionary and discriminatory. A women-only safe space is sexist, as the implied "safety" of not allowing men implies that men are inherently unsafe. A POC-only safe space is racist, as the implied "safety" of not allowing whites implies that whites are inherently unsafe. If anyone were to even suggest the opposite implementation, a men-only or whites-only "safe space",…

Remember, if you are a white male it is fundamentally impossible for you to experience hardship. Only people of color and women ever have problems in life. You know why there are no activist/support groups for "fresh off boat" immigrants? They're too busy actively and constructively improving their lives. Fundamentally safe spaces and related are a thing of privilege. If you have time to think about that, you're part…

The poor peoples campaign was one. They demanded an economic bill of rights. Martin Luther King was the founder of it, he believed that poverty the main issue in America at that time. A month later he was assassinated and the whole thing fell apart.

"The Poor People’s Campaign was motivated by a desire for economic justice: the idea that all people should have what they need to live. King and the SCLC shifted their focus to these issues after observing that gains in civil rights had not improved the material conditions of life for many African Americans. The Poor People’s Campaign was a multiracial effort—including African-Americans, whites, Mexican-Americans, Puerto Ricans, and Native Americans—aimed at alleviating poverty regardless of race."

His assassination (by government or business interests) is the only conspiracy I subscribe to. I believe we would live in a different world if he had a few more years on this earth.

Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#96
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's exactly what they were supposed to be. As for "taking over someone else's area," to me that's just politics. There are ebbs and flows of power and control. Trump's victory is going to legitimize a lot of criticisms and possibly over-correct, though hopefully we will be in a position to have a reasonable understanding of what a "safe space" should be within the next decade.

My understanding is that the safe-spaces movement wants dedicated rooms and even classes to be safe-spaces. That sounds like the opposite of what I described. Is this simply a disconnect from what the original intention was vs the current movement?

What is a women's bathroom but a safe space to "air your grievances" without the meddling of the opposite gender?

Start making "safe spaces" for Trump voters to talk about their candidate without being called ignorant and you'll start to see people's attitudes shift on what the sensible limitation of safe spaces should be.

Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#97
post #90
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And they want to conflate "words" with physical action; offense with violence. Thus the need for a safe space because hearing something that upsets you or you disagree with is the same as being physically assaulted. This is what you do when you are afraid of debate, afraid of being wrong and unable to defend your ideas... when you know you might lose or are losing in the arena of ideas. You criminalize differing opin…

The difference between words and physical action only becomes apparent at the point fist connects with face, with is rather too late if you want to avoid being beaten up. This makes the mere threat of violence a very effective weapon. Look up the legal definition of "assault" sometime.

I did: [1]

> The act required for an assault must be overt. Although words alone are insufficient, they might create an assault when coupled with some action that indicates the ability to carry out the threat.

Granted that that's not the definition in actual use everywhere - but, in that case, you need to specify which jurisdiction's code you're citing, because there is no general coverage of assault in the United States code, but only a few specific cases, mostly related to assault against federal officers and officials in the performance of their duties.

[1] http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/assault

Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, what do anti-gay-marriage people have to gain politically, if they got their way?

The politicians get votes for one.

So politicians get votes, for promising to ban gay marriages and/or as reward for doing it? In other words, representative democracy is working as designed. Right?

How is this different from other politicians getting votes for supporting gay marriage? It seems to me the "political gain" argument boils down to something almost meta-political; or of satisfaction/boldness in your tribe "winning", or politicians falsely professing things they know voters want -- these apply to both sides.

When I asked, I was looking for something like how voter ID laws are supposedly really written to suppress voters from the other party. Is there some way in which banning gay marriage would inherently strengthen Republicans over Democrats? (Going with this because it was presumably the grandparent's example.)

Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#99
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are making my point for me. Apparently the point of posting the video is that the person recording it thinks they have been harmed (I didn't watch the whole thing)? And that you disagree? That's exactly my point, you each have your own ideas of what harm is. What follows from that is that of course it will be messy to discuss. But it still stands that the core message of tolerance is that we should examin…

> But it still stands that the core message of tolerance is that we should examine things for harm and accept those things that minimize it, not that we should accept all things mindlessly. The recorder of that video has gone on to create a fundraiser with two goals: 1) to defame the man in the video, and 2) to seek general recompense from the public for her harm. I'm sure you watched enough of the video to get the g…

Note that you've conceded that I didn't choose to "examine" that situation far beyond it's merits. That makes it a rather weak argument against the broader point I am making.

Yes, people will come to conclusions about their personal experiences that few others agree with. So what. Politely tell them that you aren't interested in discussing whatever their beef is and move on. I didn't say that tolerance was an absolute above, in fact I started from a place where I pushed back against that misunderstanding.

Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the same stupid shit as the election. My point is that there is apparent proof of dubious tactics in the wikileaks disclosures, their failure to call te election polling close, and the immeadiate dismissal of the comey announcement. You can disagree with this evidence, but telling me "you feel" im wrong isnt intellectual.

there is apparent proof of dubious tactics in [...] their failure to call the election polling close I just want to address this one point. I think it's just untenable to imagine there was some big conspiracy to skew poll numbers in Clinton's favour. Why would all the pollsters fall in line, why wouldn't anyone break ranks and leak the story? It would be a huge story that would sell a ton of newspapers! The pollsters…

If anything, Clinton's campaign would want to give the appearance that the race was actually closer than it was, because this would give a sense of urgency to Democratic voters and increase turnout.

You can see the same principle from the time before the first debate when Clinton's campaign was exaggerating Trump's ability to debate on live television in order to give the appearance of a comeback. The reality was that Clinton always had the advantage in terms of traditional debating and her campaign knew it.

If we can say anything about this election perhaps it is that reality (the mathematical/objective one) has taken a surprisingly minor role ...

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