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Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

nature.com

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Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#41

Post by Benjamin_Dobell »

biofox wrote: post #39
Benjamin_Dobell wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would assume it's because monkeys are more intelligent than the animals we tend to eat; cows, chickens, sheep & pigs. Also, intentionally paralysing a creature, leaving it to live in that condition, and then performing experimental surgery/procedures on it is significantly different than slaughtering it. Whilst I appreciate the scientists mean well, and I do understand how this could benefit humanity; this sort of…

Scientists are not sadists, and welfare is taken extremely seriously. What people don't see are the efforts to enrich living environments, provide sedation and analgesia, or the reams of protocols on monitoring and rapidly terminating experiments if the animal is distressed. None of this exists in livestock farming. Also, for me intelligence is besides the point. If someone is suffering, I don't factor their IQ into…

The point is that intelligence is sentience. The more aware you are of your own condition the more capable you are of suffering. A jellyfish does not suffer the same as a human, at least not in the way we'd typically measure suffering.

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#42

Post by treehau5 »

FullMtlAlcoholc wrote: post #23
TeeWEE wrote: post #4

I cant help to feel sad for the monkey. I'm not sure this is the way research should be done. Why not try this on a smaller scale animal first before doing it on a monkey? Also you don"t need to cut the spinal cord todo data analysis.

Because of this sentiment, western nations are going to be leaps and bounds behind China and other nations when it comes to technologies /treatments derived from CRISPR. When George Church and ithers called for a moratorium on CRISPR based research, Chinese scientists said suit yourself and cintinued doing research on it. When the day comes that wr can cinduct research like this with simulations and can spare beasts…

> I find it more peculiar that people will treat a dog or other subhuman creature better then they will homeless person.

Maybe a tad off topic, but as a older millennial growing up in "dog" culture, thank you for saying this. The times I have seen my fellows, heck even my places of employment, bend over backwards to help the "Humane" society (ironic name, isn't it?), or hold puppy adoption events, or donate supplies to local shelters is astounding. Certainly commendable, but I wish the same enthusiasm was met for our fellow human beings as well. I wish we held "Adopt a child" events as much as we held "adopt a stray or rescue" events. I like those ads I hear sometimes about "You don't have to be perfect to be a foster parent" My wife and I are considering it. Maybe if it was more visible it would help push us over the cliff, and many others as well.

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#43

Post by ekzy »

biofox wrote: post #7

"For more than a decade, neuroscientist Grégoire Courtine has been flying every few months from his lab at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Lausanne to another lab in Beijing, China, where he conducts research on monkeys with the aim of treating spinal-cord injuries. The commute is exhausting — on occasion he has even flown to Beijing, done experiments, and returned the same night. But it is worth it, say…

I recommend this recent podcast episode about the controversial topic of animal testing http://www.stuffyoushouldknow.com/podcasts/animal-testing.ht...

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#44

Post by sandworm101 »

We have seen many such interfaces in recent years, but as I understand these techniques they all suffer the same problem. The body eventually coats the electrodes in a non-conductive layer, essentially scar tissue, and the whole thing grinds to a halt in a matter of weeks. Until that practical limitation is surmounted, it seems very wrong to treat animals in such a manner. Watching the paralyzed monkey (also the rat) struggle in obvious agony as the commentators cheered was not fun. This was not the sort of thing I had expected to see on a program clearly aimed at a general audience. This was the very dark side of animal testing.

I saw this story on a canadian news show a couple days ago, a show that regularly does spots on human exploration of Mars. The stories are similar. The headline feel-good story is about the shiny new mars habitat or spacesuit someone is testing, but they haven;t figured out how to actually get it to mars. The result is the false impression that the dreamed future, colonizing Mars and curing paralysis, is closer than is true.

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#45

Post by TeeWEE »

kayoone wrote: post #16
TeeWEE wrote: post #4

I cant help to feel sad for the monkey. I'm not sure this is the way research should be done. Why not try this on a smaller scale animal first before doing it on a monkey? Also you don"t need to cut the spinal cord todo data analysis.

Do you also feel sad for the millions of animals that live in miserable conditions for months/years just to be eaten by us afterwards? This is arguably less of a torture to a much smaller number of animals, yet it is heavily regulated in most countries.

I have a lot of friends who are farmers. Those animals dont live in miserable conditions. And when they are killed, its in an instant. Heck i even feeded cows and pigs.

Its something different to experiment on a living animal.

However I do understand its important for research. However its a difficult subject.

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#46

Post by Something1234 »

adrianN wrote: post #22
popol12 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are much closer geneticaly to monkeys than to cows, I would'nt do experiments on something that has 99% genes in common with me.

Chimpanzees are at ~98%, mice are at about 97% similarity [1]. Where do you draw the line? Genetic similarity is imho a poor measure. The capability of suffering is more difficult to assess, but more useful. I'm reasonably sure that the animals we eat can suffer sufficiently to make the way we raise and kill them problematic. [1] https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2352-just-2-5-of-dna-...

Genetic similarity is bs measurement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbY122CSC5w

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#47

Post by smhost »

Benjamin_Dobell wrote: post #37
snowwrestler wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trying things and seeing what happens is the essence of science; the only way we have to try to figure things out. Scientists have to get replication of an effect before they can design further experiments to dig into its details. As to whether it's unethical--it sickens me too. It's horrifying but what if it gives us the key to solving spinal paralysis? It's a classic moral dilemma. I highly recommend this short sto…

Science starts with observation, not experimentation. Honestly, if this was software, I'd consider this sort of approach as nothing short of pathetic. When I first reverse engineered firmware flashing software for mobile phones, experimentation was the absolute last thing I did - and all that experimentation could do was damage my phone, not another living creature. Instead I recorded observations of software operati…

> We next exploited cortical signals to decode the temporal structure of extensor and flexor hotspot activation. The spiking activity recorded from the left motor cortex displayed cyclic modulations that were phase-locked with right leg movements (Extended Data Fig. 4a). We developed a decoder that calculated the probability of foot-strike and foot-off events from this modulation to anticipate the activation of extensor and flexor hotspots associated with right leg movements (Extended Data Fig. 4b). Evaluations in two intact monkeys showed that the decoder accurately predicted these gait events in real time over extended periods of locomotion, including when initiating and terminating gait, and during rest.

(Source: doi:10.1038/nature20118)

Is that kind of what you mean?

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#48

Post by biofox »

Benjamin_Dobell wrote: post #41
biofox wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scientists are not sadists, and welfare is taken extremely seriously. What people don't see are the efforts to enrich living environments, provide sedation and analgesia, or the reams of protocols on monitoring and rapidly terminating experiments if the animal is distressed. None of this exists in livestock farming. Also, for me intelligence is besides the point. If someone is suffering, I don't factor their IQ into…

The point is that intelligence is sentience. The more aware you are of your own condition the more capable you are of suffering. A jellyfish does not suffer the same as a human, at least not in the way we'd typically measure suffering.

I partially agree with you, but sentience isn't the same as intelligence. From having had dogs I get the impression that most of them are every bit as sentient as I am.

There's also a large amount of speciesism involved in how we feel that's not concerned with intelligence or sentience. As an example, I can conceive of a scenario where someone with a severe learning disability might be less aware and less capable of abstract problem solving than some corvids are. That wouldn't affect my decision of which one to assist in a disaster.

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#49

Post by scawf »

Benjamin_Dobell wrote: post #37
snowwrestler wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trying things and seeing what happens is the essence of science; the only way we have to try to figure things out. Scientists have to get replication of an effect before they can design further experiments to dig into its details. As to whether it's unethical--it sickens me too. It's horrifying but what if it gives us the key to solving spinal paralysis? It's a classic moral dilemma. I highly recommend this short sto…

Science starts with observation, not experimentation. Honestly, if this was software, I'd consider this sort of approach as nothing short of pathetic. When I first reverse engineered firmware flashing software for mobile phones, experimentation was the absolute last thing I did - and all that experimentation could do was damage my phone, not another living creature. Instead I recorded observations of software operati…

Do you think scientists are not recording normal use case ?

Of course they use technology to observe and record normal and pathological "use". Do you think brain implants are made without using scanner, IRM...?

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#50

Post by PetitPrince »

TeeWEE wrote: post #4

I cant help to feel sad for the monkey. I'm not sure this is the way research should be done. Why not try this on a smaller scale animal first before doing it on a monkey? Also you don"t need to cut the spinal cord todo data analysis.

Courtine's lab have already done a lot of experiments on rats for several years now [1].

[1]: https://youtu.be/ejwEqpV8ak4

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