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China’s ‘Artificial Sun’ achieves fusion breakthrough

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Re: China’s ‘Artificial Sun’ achieves fusion breakthrough

#141

Post by Ygg2 »

arethuza wrote: post #99
sonium wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might sound a bit like a buzz-kill, but I don't think fusion power is necessarily competitively cheap. I think it will be comparable to nuclear power with a ~ 10 times higher capital investment to build a fusion-plant. Already now solar is said to be cheaper then nuclear. But nevertheless humanity should explore fusion since it is more or less the only significant power source not (indrectly) depending on the su…

I agree - always been a bit mystified when fusion power is described as "cheap", fuel isn't a big component of the cost of fission power plants so even if the fuel is low cost it won't save you that much money. [I guess decommissioning costs might be lower but are they actually included in the costs of operating normal nuclear plants?]

Aren't large part of that actually the waste disposal costs? With Fusion you in theory, avoid radioactive waste.

Re: China’s ‘Artificial Sun’ achieves fusion breakthrough

#142

Post by varjag »

jimmaswell wrote: post #66
wallace_f wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>implying it's not "clean energy". Well, it's not. Whether it's "cleaner" than alternative fossil fuels is an interesting debate, however.

Its byproducts, spent material, can be safely stored indefinitely in appropriate facilities. Running nuclear plants doesn't pollute the environment. How is it not clean?

Much of the actual, exiting waste however is not stored safely. And the two INES scale 1 incidents we had did pollute the environment pretty badly. So yes it is pretty dirty so far.

You don't get very far in life relying on best-case scenario planning.

Re: China’s ‘Artificial Sun’ achieves fusion breakthrough

#143

Post by gph »

bduerst wrote: post #138
ryanSrich wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was under the impression that fusion is held back by two major things. 1.) cost. It's incredibly expensive 2.) speculation. We don't _really_ know if it'll work yet.

Re: 2) it's already working, it's just the energy in isn't less than the energy out yet (but it's constantly getting better). Harnessing fossil fuels for cheap energy was so revolutionary that it's necessary for almost all aspects of our life. It would be great to do that with hydrogen too.

I get what your saying, but I wouldn't consider something to be working if it requires more energy in than it produces.

It's not like people are questioning whether we could ever produce a fusion reaction. We're questioning whether it's actually viable as an energy source.

Re: China’s ‘Artificial Sun’ achieves fusion breakthrough

#144

Post by lorenzhs »

kuschku wrote: post #113
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that China has made epic investments in education and training, while the US, the UK, and some other Western countries have worked hard to make education and training more expensive and less accessible. There's also been a hollowing out of independent inquiry in Western academia, and its replacement by a for-profit-only paper production sweatshop, with universities becoming corporations that have no…

Interestingly, the only western power actually still doing something is Germany, which just started a program to invest another 200 billion EUR into education over the next few years. We might see a return of Germany surpassing the US in science output again.

That number sounds a bit large to me (2500€ per capita is a lot!). Do you have some more information? Can't find any mention of such a programme. https://www.bmbf.de/de/der-haushalt-des-bundesministeriums-f...

Re: China’s ‘Artificial Sun’ achieves fusion breakthrough

#145

Post by marze »

kybernetikos wrote: post #84

I would love to see a huge effort towards fusion, on the same (or even greater) scale as the Manhattan project or the Apollo program. I had been disappointed in the way that fusion always seemed to be 30 years away no matter how many years went past, but I just assumed that that was because the science was hard and just the way it had to be. https://i.imgur.com/sjH5r.jpg https://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/Article…

For an early glimpse of this fusion powered future upopia, check out the power of present day fusion power. New generation is coming online at 2.5 cents US per kWh. Compare that to retail electric rates of 15 cents / kWh in parts of the US. Incredible!

And this new fusion power is completely clean and emission free, and what's more, generates no nuclear waste whatsoever! Worst case accident: oops, Fred dropped a solar panel on his toe.

Re: China’s ‘Artificial Sun’ achieves fusion breakthrough

#146

Post by clarry »

nnq wrote: post #132
avar wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need to scale up solar or wind in a particular region, you just transfer it from afar via HVDC. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertec Sure there's engineering challenges in that, but no more than some hypothetical case where we need an entire fusion plant in some locality right now .

It's not engineering problems . It's assumptions about how humans will behave! Maybe the region where solar needs can be scaled is not in your country. Maybe you're at war with that country. Or maybe the company producing that power would only sell you the power at some outrageous price that you don't want to pay. Maybe you want to be the one selling not buying that power, you want to be the one making profit. Maybe…

> We need more technologies that just work and can be used SUSTAINABLY in any random place and at any scale

Well that doesn't sound like fusion. At all.

Re: China’s ‘Artificial Sun’ achieves fusion breakthrough

#147

Post by helthanatos »

vilhelm_s wrote: post #8
helthanatos wrote: post #5

"This is not the first time that EAST has generated enduring plasma. In 2012, plasma in a similar environment was maintained for 32 seconds, breaking the world record at that time. Since then, EAST has had its tungsten diverters and auxiliary heating system upgraded, laying the foundation to create long-pulse, high-confinement plasma. Officially established in 2006, the EAST fusion reactor is run by the Institute of…

102 seconds.

So after 10 years, it's 10.2% of their goal. ~3% in 6 years to ~7% in 4 years. The rate may keep rising or they may find something sooner. Hopefully it won't take another 50 years to reach their goal.

Re: China’s ‘Artificial Sun’ achieves fusion breakthrough

#148

Post by kuschku »

lorenzhs wrote: post #144
kuschku wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly, the only western power actually still doing something is Germany, which just started a program to invest another 200 billion EUR into education over the next few years. We might see a return of Germany surpassing the US in science output again.

That number sounds a bit large to me (2500€ per capita is a lot!). Do you have some more information? Can't find any mention of such a programme. https://www.bmbf.de/de/der-haushalt-des-bundesministeriums-f...

That program was being discussed as part of the reinvestments over the next 10 years, funded by the tax surplus.

The idea was to spread it to about 20 billion a year, and a similar amount being spent on infrastructure, which would roughly match the 48 billion EUR tax surplus.

It was supposed to be voted on earlier, but I’m not sure what’s being discussed right now, it’s all still unclear.

I do know that some states have already started investing into education, under the assumption they’d get the money back through that.

Re: China’s ‘Artificial Sun’ achieves fusion breakthrough

#149

Post by Retric »

marze wrote: post #145
kybernetikos wrote: post #84

I would love to see a huge effort towards fusion, on the same (or even greater) scale as the Manhattan project or the Apollo program. I had been disappointed in the way that fusion always seemed to be 30 years away no matter how many years went past, but I just assumed that that was because the science was hard and just the way it had to be. https://i.imgur.com/sjH5r.jpg https://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/Article…

For an early glimpse of this fusion powered future upopia, check out the power of present day fusion power. New generation is coming online at 2.5 cents US per kWh. Compare that to retail electric rates of 15 cents / kWh in parts of the US. Incredible! And this new fusion power is completely clean and emission free, and what's more, generates no nuclear waste whatsoever! Worst case accident: oops, Fred dropped a sola…

Roof mounted solar has relatively high fatality rates from people falling off roofs. However, ground mounted solar panels are much safer.

Re: China’s ‘Artificial Sun’ achieves fusion breakthrough

#150

Post by Retric »

nnq wrote: post #132
avar wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need to scale up solar or wind in a particular region, you just transfer it from afar via HVDC. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertec Sure there's engineering challenges in that, but no more than some hypothetical case where we need an entire fusion plant in some locality right now .

It's not engineering problems . It's assumptions about how humans will behave! Maybe the region where solar needs can be scaled is not in your country. Maybe you're at war with that country. Or maybe the company producing that power would only sell you the power at some outrageous price that you don't want to pay. Maybe you want to be the one selling not buying that power, you want to be the one making profit. Maybe…

A solar farm has higher energy density than you might think. New York City could get ~100 gigawatts of solar power without importing anything. Further, if anyplace used close to as much energy as provided by sunlight it would get really hot.
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