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California Secession Making Headway in Silicon Valley Community

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Re: California Secession Making Headway in Silicon Valley Community

#41
post #5

This would probably kick off a trend if it were successful here. None of the other blue states would be satisfied with the loss of our progressive electoral college voting bloc. It'd put Republicans in the awkward position of denouncing the progressive left's sudden support of states' rights. California, on the other hand, would continue to be a terrific place to live. Preliminarily I would consider supporting #Calex…

Yeah, till the other states take the water rights away. Or the conservative sierras secede in turn and then you have no snowmelt either. But really, this is ill-advised. It's the same thing in Alaska when they don't like the winner -they whine. People don't realize that as LatAm immigrants assimilate into the fabric and Americanize, they tend to drift conservative, so be careful what you wish for. Also, remember, onc…

Depending on the outcome, I think that we'd be able to figure some solution that works for what would become the nation of California (based on what land actually CalExits.)

Worst case scenario - either de-salt the water in the ocean, or buy it. If the United States can sell electricity with Mexico given our contentious at times relationship, I'm sure we could figure it out.

Totally agree with you - in principle it would be difficult, messy, and would very much be a disruptive conversation to have with America.

Then again, even the Trump campaign expected they would be unsuccessful in the end.

Re: California Secession Making Headway in Silicon Valley Community

#42
post #7

States cannot legally secede unilaterally, and there's a no chance in hell Congress would approve. Unless you're willing to form a militia against the US Army that surely would be sent in--which, ironically for California, is more difficult because of the stricter gun control. (Reason had a great headline yesterday--something like, "Trump's election makes liberals realize appeal of limited government.")

Republicans would be happy to see California leave, as it would ensure their control of the House of Representatives for the foreseeable future; maybe the presidency. They'd probably even agree to a sweet-heart free-trade deal. And I don't think people appreciate how deep the disdain is in many parts of the country for liberal, Democratic politics in general, and California in particular.

New England and some Midwestern states would fight it tooth and nail as it would leave them, culturally and politically, with substantially diminished power.

America was always an uneasy balance between the North's industrial and merchant ethos and the Southern plantation culture that emphasizes fixed social identity. The problem is that as income inequality, immobility, and non-European immigration has grown, the Southern plantation culture is predominating. It's even infected the more progressive Northern culture by emphasizing identity politics.

Race doesn't "exist", but racism exists, and it's easier to conceptualize and identify racism by classifying people according to "race", such that both perpetrators and victims will naturally self-classify. Likewise, as overt prejudice against various groups has moved into the public sphere in a way that permits it to be challenged, self-classification has grown stronger. Identity politics has always existed, but in Northern political culture it was much less consequential and more fluid. Change came fast and there was less time for pathological patterns to set in. In plantation culture social identity is more fundamental to how power is structured, brokered, and perceived; and obsession with avoiding change means pathological patterns are more likely to set in. This is why, despite racism towards blacks being alive and well in the North, Northerners have historically be more accommodating to power sharing; whereas in the Deep South despite blacks nearing 40% in some states they're still grossly disenfranchised politically, not just economically.

This election is further proof that Southern political culture is spreading like a virus. In most of the U.S. identity is used to exclude and antagonize; in California identity is still largely an inclusive concept (i.e. diversity is still largely seen as an empowering phenomenon, even by poor whites, or at worst a neutral phenomenon). I'd rather not wait to see California go the way of much of the rest of the country.

I grew up in the Deep South, and have lived and worked in the Mid-Atlantic, New England, and Chicagoland. I'd be happy to see California secede (with my family along with it), especially if both Oregon and Washington came along for the ride given the strong economic, legal, and political similarities. Though, that's even more unlikely than California seceding alone. My only hesitation would be leaving behind some other Northern states. The South and rural areas would be almost universally ecstatic to see California go, at least in the abstract. (Some rural white Californians notwithstanding.)

I'm also not oblivious to the fact that the current movement, such as it is, is a peculiarly techie phenomenon and a product of a particular tech-focused worldview I do not share despite my career. But I've thought for years that a California secession would make a ton of sense politically and culturally. The first time I came out here over 15 years ago it felt like a different country; it still feels that way.

Re: California Secession Making Headway in Silicon Valley Community

#43
post #11
post #7

States cannot legally secede unilaterally, and there's a no chance in hell Congress would approve. Unless you're willing to form a militia against the US Army that surely would be sent in--which, ironically for California, is more difficult because of the stricter gun control. (Reason had a great headline yesterday--something like, "Trump's election makes liberals realize appeal of limited government.")

What about Florida? Can we dump Florida? ;)

Florida is leaving us anyway. In 2030, the average IQ of what used to be Florida is bound to increase due to all the dolphins and whales swimming about.

Re: California Secession Making Headway in Silicon Valley Community

#44
Before the election (when all the Democrats thought they would be in control): We need to accept the election results. Protesting the decision hurts our democracy.

After they lose: Massive protests and a desire to secede from the the US.

If Republicans would have protested or suggested a secession after a Hillary win, they would be called 'sexist'. Democrats are sore losers. Republicans endured 8 years of Obama and never protested like this.

Instead of shunning half the country, figure out why you lost.

Re: California Secession Making Headway in Silicon Valley Community

#45
Hilarious!

Most of you (HN commentators) were bashing Britons when they decided to leave the EU (which policies they don't like), calling them backwards, xenophobic, etc.

And now you want to do the same. And perceive it as 'progressive'.

Moreover:

1. EU had been imposing unpopular polices over Britons for years. Trump administration hasn't introduced any policy yet, moreover, it hasn't formed yet.

2. Trump and Pence were _elected_ in a direct democratic elections. European Commission president and all commissioners are being _appointed_ by ruling elites.

In future political science textbooks this will serve as a prominent example of the phenomenon named 'liberal hypocrisy'.

Re: California Secession Making Headway in Silicon Valley Community

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Perhaps, but remember militaries train discipline and chain of command for a reason. Indeed, and that's why its so significant that Californians make up such a large portion of the military. They bring that modern world class military training with them. Without that body of already experienced and trained people, a real military would be essentially impossible for years, even decades. > If there were a serious reb…

Do you actually think that active duty service members would secede along with their home state? Or that the military would allow it?

Ah, yes, if only the British had responded to the American rebellion by "not allowing it", then the US would have never existed.

That sounds reasonable.

Re: California Secession Making Headway in Silicon Valley Community

#47

Before the election (when all the Democrats thought they would be in control): We need to accept the election results. Protesting the decision hurts our democracy. After they lose: Massive protests and a desire to secede from the the US. If Republicans would have protested or suggested a secession after a Hillary win, they would be called 'sexist'. Democrats are sore losers. Republicans endured 8 years of Obama and n…

Remember how much condemnation Trump got for saying he might not accept the election result?

Re: California Secession Making Headway in Silicon Valley Community

#48
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Perhaps, but remember militaries train discipline and chain of command for a reason. Indeed, and that's why its so significant that Californians make up such a large portion of the military. They bring that modern world class military training with them. Without that body of already experienced and trained people, a real military would be essentially impossible for years, even decades. > If there were a serious reb…

I think you overestimate it. People who go into the military are more conservative than liberal, on average. They are more patriotic on average and on top of that they are part of the _federal_ government and take orders from them. I don't see many, or any significant amount going rogue and having a mutiny to please the desires of elites in California they probably have little in common with. It's not like the milita…

> People who go into the military are more conservative than liberal, on average.

In-group loyalty is paramount to conservatives. Family and community first, and all that.

> They are more patriotic on average...

Exactly, and that supports my argument. If California declares independence, then the patriots from California will either side with their homeland, their communities, the places where their families are... or be traitors to their homeland, community, and family.

What do you think is the more likely thing for a conservative to do?

> I don't see many, or any significant amount going rogue...

If it reached the point where California declared independence, it would be those who sided with the US who were the ones "going rouge".

You are completely ignoring, most importantly, the issue of family. A service member from California almost certainly has their family in California. Your suggestion is that a significant majority of service members would side against their own family. That is what siding with the federal government in the even of California declaring independence would mean. Does that really seem likely to you? That they would side against their own family and home? Especially for a group that tends towards being conservative?

Think about it.

Re: California Secession Making Headway in Silicon Valley Community

#49
post #36
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are an American and a true patriot you cannot support Calexit. We need everyone in this together for the future political battles to come. Isolation will not help anyone.

Since when is "true patriot" only something that can apply to the USA?

I said if you are an American and a true patriot. Of course you can be a patriot of another country.

Re: California Secession Making Headway in Silicon Valley Community

#50

Hilarious! Most of you (HN commentators) were bashing Britons when they decided to leave the EU (which policies they don't like), calling them backwards, xenophobic, etc. And now you want to do the same. And perceive it as 'progressive'. Moreover: 1. EU had been imposing unpopular polices over Britons for years. Trump administration hasn't introduced any policy yet, moreover, it hasn't formed yet. 2. Trump and Pence…

As a "liberal", and one (from the sounds of it) who would likely disagree with many of your political stances, I am in complete agreement with what you have said here.
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