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Lessons from Outsourcing to India, China and the Philippines

troyhunt.com

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Re: Lessons from Outsourcing to India, China and the Philippines

#31
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a question. You're in the US and your employer has decided to out source some work. Why are you , the American worker, tolerating your employer's request to stay late to talk to their outsourced lackeys? Whenever I've been asked to stay late for a time zone crossing meeting with outsourced employees, I've refused. WE are THEIR customers, not the other way around. They can damn well get up at 3am and WebEx-in i…

Well, in some cases people will do it because otherwise their employer may fire them. Living in the US most of us are at will, and don't have that much luxury to give employers the finger.

ya lol.. most people dont have the luxury

Re: Lessons from Outsourcing to India, China and the Philippines

#32
One thing that jumped out to me reading the article was the author’s (or the organization’s) aversion to writing requirement spec (“detailed documentation”).

That sounded very worrisome particularly considering the fact that the development was for a domain like that of Pharma, where rules & regulations shadows heavily on what and how things are done.

I have some experience in developing software products for Pharma industry and it was quite an effort in keeping track of FDA updates which would impact the features that were under development or were planned for. Examples, basic and mandatory feature sets like Audits, Logging, Security, Access management, Reports etc. are heavily influenced by compliance regulations of FDA and equivalent bodies of Europe, Canada etc. And added layer of complexity is each regulatory bodies have different approach to regulation and compliance.

Considering the fact that Pfizer were outsourcing to ‘code shops’ who would never ever get into that complexity; well thought out requirement documentation which has taken into consideration current and future landscape should have been number one priority. I would have sleepless nights if I was coordinating a project where ‘can do’ developers start working from a basic one-pager from ‘business people’.

I guess it was perhaps because the author was the go between the domain experts (he mentions them as ‘business people’) and the developers.

It would have been great if the author would have shed some light on what could client do from their end in terms of reducing ambiguity while working with teams where communication and loss in translation is one of the biggest risk.

I suspect that there is a whole missing dimension in this story.

Re: Lessons from Outsourcing to India, China and the Philippines

#33
One of the things you might want to remember when outsourcing to India: most of the best developers tend to jump to product companies sooner or later. The best Indian offshoring companies tend to charge around USD 50 / hour, out of which the developers see about $3 (college grads) to $20 (10+ years) per hour. The rest of it goes to managers and overheads. And this is the best companies. The more mass market ones charge $20 to $30 an hour.

The better devs know that their possible value to the company is always capped, and because the country has a huge number of engineering graduates rubber stamped by a network of substandard universities and colleges, developers are usually very easily replaceable cogs.

So Google, Amazon, Microsoft, Flipkart, Freshdesk, Hike, and a lot of smaller not known Indian companies that develop specialized tech is where folks tend to go.

Re: Lessons from Outsourcing to India, China and the Philippines

#34
Nothing was said about the security implications of outsourcing to people who are required to obey a different government. Are you going to open up your network to them? Are you going to expose your trade secrets to them?

When you find a strangely perfect clone of your product on the market, do not be surprised.

Re: Lessons from Outsourcing to India, China and the Philippines

#35
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, in some cases people will do it because otherwise their employer may fire them. Living in the US most of us are at will, and don't have that much luxury to give employers the finger.

What's your value to your employer? If you're not willing to stay late to do a cross time zone meeting then I agree that you're worth a bit less to your boss than you otherwise would be. Personally I would rather accept a bit less pay to be rid of a nuisance like a boss who thinks I'll inconvenience myself and my family for stupid shit like adjusting myself to his outsourced labour's schedule. I do stay late when shi…

So you Americans now are embracing being full-time assholes after electing trump.

Re: Lessons from Outsourcing to India, China and the Philippines

#37

Really interesting and well written article. I don't think China will be an outsourcing destination for long. In India your slowly starting to see agencies that aren't merely code factories but places where you can do actual product development. Its early days though.

I am really glad that e-commerce is taking off in India. The code factories model of relying entirely on foreign projects is not sustainable in the long run.

The problem however is that there aren't a lot of jobs for other kinds of engineering. I hope that changes soon too.

Re: Lessons from Outsourcing to India, China and the Philippines

#38
Nice article and on the spot.

There is a difference between offshoring and cheap-shoring (i.e what I call offshoring at very low costs). Most of the bad experiences you get from India are a result of cheap-shoring. You get what you pay for. Cheapshoring undervalues good engineers and overvalues a lot of bad engineers.

I have seen this for almost 15 years (from the Indian side), and I don't like it. While some people see Indian IT as growing with the likes of Infosys, TCS, Wipro, etc - I personally saw that as crippling good CS talent in India. However, all that is coming to an end - probably sooner than later. These biggies will either have to trim down significantly or collapse under their own weight

If you want equivalently good engineers from India (as of now), be ready to pay half(45-50%) of the pay in US. So if you are paying 120K in the US, the same should cost you 54-60K USD when the engineer is in India. This will also reduce friction. One may get lucky in the early days hiring at cheaper costs, but sooner or later the good engineers will see their worth and will most likely leave instead of asking for a raise. You have to do your due-diligence selecting a worthy engineer - that is like finding a needle in a haystack.

If somebody chooses cheapshoring, they are planning for a higher cost that is at least more than the 50% mark mentioned and in most cases if you analyze retrospectively - it would have cost lower if you did not cheap-offshore in the first place. The release may seem less costly, but the maintenance and operating costs will ultimately outgrow.

Re: Lessons from Outsourcing to India, China and the Philippines

#39
the Philippines:

"one of the starkest patterns I saw outsourcing there was their strong affinity to PHP. This isn't intended to be a derogatory... the LAMP stack is really appealing to folks who don't have much cash... the Microsoft stack... was simply much harder to find competence in. You'd go to a vendor and their default position was 'Yeah, we can do that in PHP and MySQL'"

Re: Lessons from Outsourcing to India, China and the Philippines

#40
post #39

the Philippines: "one of the starkest patterns I saw outsourcing there was their strong affinity to PHP. This isn't intended to be a derogatory... the LAMP stack is really appealing to folks who don't have much cash... the Microsoft stack... was simply much harder to find competence in. You'd go to a vendor and their default position was 'Yeah, we can do that in PHP and MySQL'"

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