Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer • Hacker News Board

Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#101

Post by tikhonj » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 4:53 AM UTC

DougN7 wrote: post #14

aetherson wrote: post #11

Yeah, I'd like to see some actual data. Some kind of scientific study, anything. I don't say this because I'm a proponent of work-at-any-cost culture -- I'm not. I work about 45 hours a week, no weekends or nights outside of rare emergencies. That's certainly good for my mood and my relationship with my family and so forth. But I see all these articles in which they suggest that after 40 hours a week, your productivi…

Completely agree. And the fact that the breaking point is a nice round 40, which just happens to correspond with our culture's 5-day work week and typical 8 hour day is a little too convenient to believe.

I doubt the breaking point is 40, but 40 seems close. I remember looking through studies on the matter[1] and seeing numbers floating around between 35–45 hours/week. It's hard to generalize because productivity is hard to measure and behaves differently in different cultures and professions, but I am willing to believe that the breaking point for most people is within 10—15% of 40 hours/week. Then again, I wouldn't be surprised if it was a bit lower...

[1]: Unfortunately I don't have them handy, and they had some clear limitations. If I'm remembering correctly, some were about relatively unskilled work and none were about programming, where measuring productivity is an open problem.

Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#102

Post by morgante » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 5:16 AM UTC

mi100hael wrote: post #2

How many people out there really keep working on the weekends voluntarily as the author seems to suggest? I'm pretty clear with my coworkers/boss that the only time I'm going to work after-hours or weekends is in case of rare, extreme emergency. There's no expectation that I work weekends, so I'm definitely not going to do it voluntarily. I like programming and like learning new things so I often do work on a side-pr…

I work almost every weekend, but there's also plenty of days where I don't start work until noon. I prize flexibility far above absolute number of hours: I'd rather work 60 hours a week than be forced to work 9-5 every day.

Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#103

Post by enraged_camel » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 5:16 AM UTC

nitpicker9123 wrote: post #34

Arjuna wrote: post #16

My favorite work-life balance commentary comes from Darren Aronofsky's film Pi : Sol Robeson You remember Archimedes of Syracuse, eh? The king asks Archimedes to determine if a present he's received is actually solid gold. Unsolved problem at the time. It tortures the great Greek mathematician for weeks. Insomnia haunts him and he twists and turns in his bed for nights on end. Finally, his equally exhausted wife... s…

This is the first time that I hear the claim that Archimedes was married. Wikipedia: "It is unknown, for instance, whether he ever married or had children."

Very fitting username. ;)

Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#104

Post by WhitneyLand » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 5:25 AM UTC

This premise is just wishful thinking. Work life balance may make us happier, it may be the best choice to lead a fulfilled life, but it's wrong to suggest it's going to make us win at software development.

List the people you would rate as the top 10 computer scientists or engineers over the last century. Now, how many of these people worked only 40hrs a week or less?

If you're not interested in greatness, or maxing out your true potential, then balance is a fine (maybe wiser) choice. But please don't discredit obsession and single mindedness after they have been the force behind so many accomplishments.

Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#105

Post by ksk » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 5:31 AM UTC

Swizec wrote: post #77

ksk wrote: post #74

After reading such articles I'm always left with the feeling that as software engineers we think we are in some kind of magical domain that is completely different from where the rest of worlds engineers/scientists do their work. I work with a lot of scientists, and most of them have pretty much zero sense of work life balance. They work long hours, often work on weekends, are obsessed about their work, and exhibit a…

> I'd say a TON of scientific and cutting edge engineering The problem is that most of us think we're doing cutting edge engineering work, but really we're not. We're just the manual laborers of the information age. Artisans at best. We the average joe engineers of the world, need rest and work/life balance. That said, Feynman is famous for crediting the stepping away from work work and going back to joyous play, wit…

>That said, Feynman is famous for crediting the stepping away from work work and going back to joyous play, with making discoveries that lead to a Nobel prize. If he kept pushing himself and toiling on the busywork that Real Research was pushing on him, he'd never get anything done.

Hmm, I don't recall him ever saying that. Do you have a cite for that?

What I do recall is him saying he often worked on problems that served no greater purpose, essentially for the fun of it rather than any assumed utility. He may very well have been toiling for long hours on those problems.

Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#106

Post by Tsagadai » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 5:34 AM UTC

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #30

aetherson wrote: post #11

Yeah, I'd like to see some actual data. Some kind of scientific study, anything. I don't say this because I'm a proponent of work-at-any-cost culture -- I'm not. I work about 45 hours a week, no weekends or nights outside of rare emergencies. That's certainly good for my mood and my relationship with my family and so forth. But I see all these articles in which they suggest that after 40 hours a week, your productivi…

It's comments like this that really make me sad about the state of labor solidarity among tech professionals. Like, please, stop torpedoing our negotiation position, especially on a public forum that many technical employers and managers read. On the object level, I have a suspicion that being productive past 40 hr/wk or so has reverse causation for me. It's bad for me to work over 40 hours a week, so that magically…

We work in a field where many decide to take advantage of their employees who are usually young, single and love working on their code. This is a ripe combination of exploiting naivety for commercial gain (if you think you make a lot coding, think about those higher up who are selling it).

On the negotiating side, I know a truly brilliant consultant who is way off at the higher end of salaries who negotiated to work only 7 months of the year. He would work 6 days a week and usually 14 hours a day but then wouldn't even touch a computer for almost 6 months. If some people want to work crazy hours they should be able to but they should demand appropriate remuneration for it and not sell their time and brainpower cheaply. And people who can get more done in less time should not be expected to work longer just because others are less productive.

Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#107

Post by enraged_camel » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 5:41 AM UTC

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #75

gingerrr wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd take issue with your claim that the response by GP was the first emotional or attacking blow - that response was to GGP's "easy hipster life" claim, and the implicit claim therein that GP's call for labor solidarity was spoiled whining rather than, perhaps, a call for skilled workers in an industry to support each other's negotiation positions rather than undercut each other. > It's not reasonable to expect other…

What argument are you claiming is weakened? I'm not saying any argument is weakened. This is analogous to what I saw: 1. Article claims X, which is good for software devs as a whole. 2. Software dev #1 says "Hmm...is X even true? Doesn't make sense for reasons A, B, and C." 3. Software dev #2 says "Hey, we're trying to negotiate here and it doesn't matter if X is true or not. You shouldn't even be pointing out that i…

>>I want to be associated with a community of people who are looking for the truth, even if it leads them somewhere difficult, not protecting themselves at the expense of others, truth be damned.

Management wants to protect the company's profit at the expense of employees, so why shouldn't the employees push back and try to protect their quality of life?

Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#108

Post by cocktailpeanuts » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 6:09 AM UTC

Arjuna wrote: post #16

My favorite work-life balance commentary comes from Darren Aronofsky's film Pi : Sol Robeson You remember Archimedes of Syracuse, eh? The king asks Archimedes to determine if a present he's received is actually solid gold. Unsolved problem at the time. It tortures the great Greek mathematician for weeks. Insomnia haunts him and he twists and turns in his bed for nights on end. Finally, his equally exhausted wife... s…

I think the moral of that story is not work life balance. It's that you should work crazy, just don't forget to take a break when you're stuck.

For example, I worked all day today (true story), trying to figure out some algorithm. I got stuck. So I took a walk. And it just came to me while I was taking the walk. Now I'm back and am back to work and it's super productive.

If I worked like 3 hours and then went out to meet friends, have dinner, go watch some musical, and came back. I literally wouldn't have had time to even get to this point.

Back to Archimedes, "The breakthrough came" only because he put his time in, and it just synthesized in his brain when he finally took a break. If Archimedes was a "40 hour work week" guy, he probably wouldn't have got to that state.

Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#109

Post by sidcool » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 6:12 AM UTC

Arjuna wrote: post #16

My favorite work-life balance commentary comes from Darren Aronofsky's film Pi : Sol Robeson You remember Archimedes of Syracuse, eh? The king asks Archimedes to determine if a present he's received is actually solid gold. Unsolved problem at the time. It tortures the great Greek mathematician for weeks. Insomnia haunts him and he twists and turns in his bed for nights on end. Finally, his equally exhausted wife... s…

True. I loved the movie, but couldn't understand the ending of the it. Was he hallucinating? Did he have nervous breakdown?

Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#110

Post by Swizec » Fri, Nov 11, 2016, 7:40 AM UTC

ksk wrote: post #105

Swizec wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd say a TON of scientific and cutting edge engineering The problem is that most of us think we're doing cutting edge engineering work, but really we're not. We're just the manual laborers of the information age. Artisans at best. We the average joe engineers of the world, need rest and work/life balance. That said, Feynman is famous for crediting the stepping away from work work and going back to joyous play, wit…

>That said, Feynman is famous for crediting the stepping away from work work and going back to joyous play, with making discoveries that lead to a Nobel prize. If he kept pushing himself and toiling on the busywork that Real Research was pushing on him, he'd never get anything done. Hmm, I don't recall him ever saying that. Do you have a cite for that? What I do recall is him saying he often worked on problems that s…

It's from Surely You're Joking Mr. Feynman. Here's a 1874 day old HN thread about it that also links to a full quote: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3033359

I remember seeing it in youtube forme once, too. Might be this 1 hour interview, but I can't find the exact timestamp now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zZbX_9ru9U