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Warning: 2016 MacBook Pro is not compatible with Linux

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Re: Warning: 2016 MacBook Pro is not compatible with Linux

#211

Post by colechristensen »

userbinator wrote: post #202
mjg59 wrote: post #97

The three primary issues here are: 1) The input devices are on SPI, not USB. Apple's ACPI tables don't provide the GPIO mappings for these things via the standard mechanisms, so the chipset driver won't bind. You then still need another driver for the SPI controller, and there's an out of tree one at https://github.com/cb22/macbook12-spi-driver/ . Longer term, the kernel needs to be able to parse Apple's ACPI tables…

The input devices are on SPI, not USB Things like this make me wonder if Apple is deliberately going for proprietariness as a sort of vendor-lock-in, because I can't see any other compelling reasons for coming up with a completely different interface for such basic and existing devices. USB and PS/2 are standardised to the point that hardware and software for them are widely available and cheap. They're also extensib…

I imagine it's more that they don't care and SPI is simpler/cheaper than USB when you custom make your hardware.

Re: Warning: 2016 MacBook Pro is not compatible with Linux

#212

Post by sandGorgon »

mwambua wrote: post #115
mjg59 wrote: post #97

The three primary issues here are: 1) The input devices are on SPI, not USB. Apple's ACPI tables don't provide the GPIO mappings for these things via the standard mechanisms, so the chipset driver won't bind. You then still need another driver for the SPI controller, and there's an out of tree one at https://github.com/cb22/macbook12-spi-driver/ . Longer term, the kernel needs to be able to parse Apple's ACPI tables…

Tangential Question: Would you say that Thinkpads are still the safest bet if you're looking for good RHEL/Fedora support & updates?

XPS 13 and 15 (or the equivalent Precision series) No question about it. Lenovo has hardware whitelists and has frequently broken Linux compatibility with its BIOS.

Re: Warning: 2016 MacBook Pro is not compatible with Linux

#213

Post by vardump »

voidlogic wrote: post #89
vardump wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Operating system doesn't matter much when the malware is in BIOS or firmware code.

>Operating system doesn't matter much when the malware is in BIOS or firmware code. Are you insinuating that was the case here? Source please, I'd be interested to read about that.

For example SMM (system management mode) code is certainly loaded and executed under any operating system. You have to just trust the mainboard vendor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_Management_Mode

I'm not insinuating anything. All I know is that Lenovo broke our collective trust before, thinking they can get away with it.

Re: Warning: 2016 MacBook Pro is not compatible with Linux

#214

Post by virtualwhys »

mwambua wrote: post #115
mjg59 wrote: post #97

The three primary issues here are: 1) The input devices are on SPI, not USB. Apple's ACPI tables don't provide the GPIO mappings for these things via the standard mechanisms, so the chipset driver won't bind. You then still need another driver for the SPI controller, and there's an out of tree one at https://github.com/cb22/macbook12-spi-driver/ . Longer term, the kernel needs to be able to parse Apple's ACPI tables…

Tangential Question: Would you say that Thinkpads are still the safest bet if you're looking for good RHEL/Fedora support & updates?

7 years on the Dell Precision line with Fedora, amazing machines.

Fedora, given its leading edge nature, will have better hardware support than RHEL as the latest firmware will always come first to the former.

Re: Warning: 2016 MacBook Pro is not compatible with Linux

#215

Post by chillingeffect »

culturestate wrote: post #205
userbinator wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The input devices are on SPI, not USB Things like this make me wonder if Apple is deliberately going for proprietariness as a sort of vendor-lock-in, because I can't see any other compelling reasons for coming up with a completely different interface for such basic and existing devices. USB and PS/2 are standardised to the point that hardware and software for them are widely available and cheap. They're also extensib…

> I can't see any other compelling reasons for coming up with a completely different interface for such basic and existing devices. I don't know enough about the implementation to speak to why they made this choice, but for what it's worth, SPI is a standard[1] - and a quite old one. I suspect, were we to follow this down the rabbit hole, that we'd find it's related to power management. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wi…

that's a good guess. I would agree. SPI is not connection-oriented and "comes up and goes down" (to the extent that it goes up and comes down at all) very fast with very little active memory needed to support the communication.

Re: Warning: 2016 MacBook Pro is not compatible with Linux

#216

Post by mjg59 »

userbinator wrote: post #202
mjg59 wrote: post #97

The three primary issues here are: 1) The input devices are on SPI, not USB. Apple's ACPI tables don't provide the GPIO mappings for these things via the standard mechanisms, so the chipset driver won't bind. You then still need another driver for the SPI controller, and there's an out of tree one at https://github.com/cb22/macbook12-spi-driver/ . Longer term, the kernel needs to be able to parse Apple's ACPI tables…

The input devices are on SPI, not USB Things like this make me wonder if Apple is deliberately going for proprietariness as a sort of vendor-lock-in, because I can't see any other compelling reasons for coming up with a completely different interface for such basic and existing devices. USB and PS/2 are standardised to the point that hardware and software for them are widely available and cheap. They're also extensib…

Apple were already using USB for the PPC iBooks, and continued that with the Macbook - Linux has always complained that it can't find a PS/2 controller on x86 Apples. But USB is poor from a power management perspective, and so input devices on low power systems are frequently run over SPI instead. Apple began this with the Macbook (which is basically a tablet shaped like a laptop) and have started extending it across their entire mobile range. There are entirely sound reasons for doing this, and it's not unique to Apple.

Re: Warning: 2016 MacBook Pro is not compatible with Linux

#217

Post by jacobolus »

userbinator wrote: post #202
mjg59 wrote: post #97

The three primary issues here are: 1) The input devices are on SPI, not USB. Apple's ACPI tables don't provide the GPIO mappings for these things via the standard mechanisms, so the chipset driver won't bind. You then still need another driver for the SPI controller, and there's an out of tree one at https://github.com/cb22/macbook12-spi-driver/ . Longer term, the kernel needs to be able to parse Apple's ACPI tables…

The input devices are on SPI, not USB Things like this make me wonder if Apple is deliberately going for proprietariness as a sort of vendor-lock-in, because I can't see any other compelling reasons for coming up with a completely different interface for such basic and existing devices. USB and PS/2 are standardised to the point that hardware and software for them are widely available and cheap. They're also extensib…

PPC Mac laptops used ADB as an internal protocol for many years after no Apple computer shipped with external ADB ports.

My recollection was that the transition to using USB as an internal protocol came slightly before the PPC->Intel transition, and that the first several generations of X86 Mac laptops used USB internally for trackpads and keyboards. You sure there were ever any using PS/2? Seems unlikely.

Re: Warning: 2016 MacBook Pro is not compatible with Linux

#218

Post by jkestner »

tedunangst wrote: post #41
gruez wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if you're referring to the superfish scandal, that piece of software wasn't developed by lenovo, it was developed by a third party, who paid lenovo to install it on their windows images. so i don't see how buying lenovo is "funding spyware".

More like Lenovo is taxing spyware, if you're going to install something other than Windows. Superfish only loses money on that transaction.

Well, that makes me feel better. Let me rephrase: By buying Lenovo, you're supporting a company that exchanges the privacy and security of unwitting customers for profit.

Re: Warning: 2016 MacBook Pro is not compatible with Linux

#219

Post by DomreiRoam »

AceJohnny2 wrote: post #44

Macbooks were never good choices to run Linux on, and it's naive to think it would've gotten any easier. Apple's version of EFI is slightly different than the standard. The laptops are filled with custom hardware that you won't find anywhere else. It took Dell months of effort by a dedicated team [1] to get all the features of a subset of Dell XPS13 laptops working under Linux. I'm actually considering buying one as…

I did buy one od these XPS developer edition. It comes with ubuntu.

If we want to signal to the market that we want laptop with linux we need to support this kind of initiative. The fact that linux just work without any changes is great.

Re: Warning: 2016 MacBook Pro is not compatible with Linux

#220

Post by geocar »

userbinator wrote: post #207
emgeee wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just an FYI SPI is a pretty standard interface in the embedded world

True, but SPI is really just referring to the physical layer protocol while the layers above can vary considerably and be proprietary. The only thing that's constant is that it is a synchronous serial protocol. It's not like USB which defines device classes and the higher-level layers of the stack, or PS/2 where e.g. all PS/2 keyboards or mice are expected to have an identical basic set of functionality and behaviour…

> I think many people are used to the idea that even if the OS does not provide drivers for specific devices, basic functionality like keyboard, mouse, and video (even if it's something like a VGA 640x480 16 colours mode) should still be present --- partly to enable "bootstrapping" into more functionality by installing and troubleshooting the drivers.

Then I think people need to step back and appreciate that this "basic functionality" is actually really expensive in terms of price, space, power and performance.

Would they really pay more for Apple hardware if it booted up with a full internal USB or a PS/2?

What if it made the laptop heavier? Shortened the battery life? These things are very important to me: I wouldn't buy a heavier Mac.

Could this be mitigated with custom ASICs? Or a new power switch and some extra power controllers (e.g. a soft switch to turn off the fallback 8042 and start using the faster more sensible SPI interface)? Perhaps, but someone has to pay for it.

Moaning about things that don't make sense to change -- that someone just doesn't like, just makes that someone unhappy.

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