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California Secession Making Headway in Silicon Valley Community

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Re: California Secession Making Headway in Silicon Valley Community

#21

Post by birken »

maverick_iceman wrote: post #13

Interesting. Brexit or Texit are bigoted, racist, xenophobic concepts but Calexit is moral, liberal and progressive?

Quite the false equivalency.

There have been clear situations where a territory has declared independence for reasons that were somewhat bigoted, racist and xenophobic (the confederacy), and many instances where a territory has declared independence for reasons that were not primarly bigoted, racist and xenophobic (probably most times, including the USA itself). Though of course all of these situations are much more complicated than those descriptors.

I'm not suggesting Calexit is a good idea at all, but suggesting an idea is good or not because there is some imagined liberal hypocrisy is not fair. Evaluate the idea on its merits.

Re: California Secession Making Headway in Silicon Valley Community

#23

Post by Hyperborian »

kinghajj wrote: post #7

States cannot legally secede unilaterally, and there's a no chance in hell Congress would approve. Unless you're willing to form a militia against the US Army that surely would be sent in--which, ironically for California, is more difficult because of the stricter gun control. (Reason had a great headline yesterday--something like, "Trump's election makes liberals realize appeal of limited government.")

On the other hand, a very significant number of military bases (packed full of military weapons and equipment) are in California, and thanks to California's out-sized population a major portion of the current active military are native Californians. That's not even taking in to account National Guard units and such.

California would take a very significant chunk of the US military with it if it left the union, and there are native Californians (who, if they backed California, could cause many problems) in key positions throughout the rest of the military as well.

Form a militia? That's ridiculous. California would be a global military power right out the gate, and a nuclear one at that.

Re: California Secession Making Headway in Silicon Valley Community

#24

Post by flukus »

relics443 wrote: post #20

Few questions: 1. Lots of talk about California and its economy. Is a possible reason it has such a strong economy because it's a part of the USA? Would it continue to have a strong economy as its own nation state? 2. How would they defend themselves military? Texas seems to have a lot more military inclined folk than California. What would they do without the support of the US Army? 3. If they put it to a vote, they…

For number 2, they wouldn't need a strong military, they've got friends on all sides. The US military goes well beyond what's needed to protect itself.

For 3, part of that is because of how the electoral college works, a lot of democratic voter probably didn't vote. Of course that goes both ways, who knows what the real numbers are.

Re: California Secession Making Headway in Silicon Valley Community

#25

Post by flukus »

kinghajj wrote: post #7

States cannot legally secede unilaterally, and there's a no chance in hell Congress would approve. Unless you're willing to form a militia against the US Army that surely would be sent in--which, ironically for California, is more difficult because of the stricter gun control. (Reason had a great headline yesterday--something like, "Trump's election makes liberals realize appeal of limited government.")

Most secessionist movements don't have a legal path to do it, that doesn't mean they have to be done violently.

Re: California Secession Making Headway in Silicon Valley Community

#26

Post by kinghajj »

Hyperborian wrote: post #23
kinghajj wrote: post #7

States cannot legally secede unilaterally, and there's a no chance in hell Congress would approve. Unless you're willing to form a militia against the US Army that surely would be sent in--which, ironically for California, is more difficult because of the stricter gun control. (Reason had a great headline yesterday--something like, "Trump's election makes liberals realize appeal of limited government.")

On the other hand, a very significant number of military bases (packed full of military weapons and equipment) are in California, and thanks to California's out-sized population a major portion of the current active military are native Californians. That's not even taking in to account National Guard units and such. California would take a very significant chunk of the US military with it if it left the union, and th…

> California would take a very significant chunk of the US military with it if it left the union

Perhaps, but remember militaries train discipline and chain of command for a reason.

> a very significant number of military bases (packed full of military weapons and equipment) are in California > California would be a global military power right out the gate, and a nuclear one at that.

If there were a serious rebellion, those would be the first targets. Thousands--even tens of thousands--of lost military and civilian lives would be a small price to pay in the US govt's eyes than to let a new nuclear power spring up on its doorstep.

Re: California Secession Making Headway in Silicon Valley Community

#27

Post by relics443 »

Hyperborian wrote: post #23
kinghajj wrote: post #7

States cannot legally secede unilaterally, and there's a no chance in hell Congress would approve. Unless you're willing to form a militia against the US Army that surely would be sent in--which, ironically for California, is more difficult because of the stricter gun control. (Reason had a great headline yesterday--something like, "Trump's election makes liberals realize appeal of limited government.")

On the other hand, a very significant number of military bases (packed full of military weapons and equipment) are in California, and thanks to California's out-sized population a major portion of the current active military are native Californians. That's not even taking in to account National Guard units and such. California would take a very significant chunk of the US military with it if it left the union, and th…

You do realize that most members of the military love their country and would not secede? That's why they put their lives on the line.

And if you think the US military would simply allow "New California" to take its weapons and facilities, then I have a bridge to sell you.

Re: California Secession Making Headway in Silicon Valley Community

#28

Post by rz2k »

maverick_iceman wrote: post #15

Also please don't flag this article. I just noticed that an article about Grubhub CEO telling Trump supporter employees to resign has been flagged. I hope there is no systematic trend in this sort of flagging.

There are a lot of people who don't want to have to have the argument about why this sort of cute posturing, much like talking about the popular vote count[1] undermines the serious work they think needs to be done.

It fits a convenient narrative for a moment--we'll show them! However it is not a movement, and is an expression of despair by a small number rather than an actual desire to secede. The temporary defeatist attitude, too, ends up getting quoted, long after people have figured out to move on productively.

To a lesser extent I think a focus on choosing DNC scapegoats sets back the important self examination that needs to be accomplished by people who were certain that the policy directions they were pursuing would also be beneficial to the people who voted for Trump. Was it a message delivery problem, a failure to understand a broader spectrum of grievances than economic pressures alone?

[1] It doesn't matter whether a shift away from electoral college would be better in the context of Nov 8, 2016, because the well known parameters of the electoral college determined voters' participation rates and the candidates' strategies.

Re: California Secession Making Headway in Silicon Valley Community

#29

Post by relics443 »

flukus wrote: post #24
relics443 wrote: post #20

Few questions: 1. Lots of talk about California and its economy. Is a possible reason it has such a strong economy because it's a part of the USA? Would it continue to have a strong economy as its own nation state? 2. How would they defend themselves military? Texas seems to have a lot more military inclined folk than California. What would they do without the support of the US Army? 3. If they put it to a vote, they…

For number 2, they wouldn't need a strong military, they've got friends on all sides. The US military goes well beyond what's needed to protect itself. For 3, part of that is because of how the electoral college works, a lot of democratic voter probably didn't vote. Of course that goes both ways, who knows what the real numbers are.

I'd think the US would not be California's greatest friend if this were to happen. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

According to data from Google and Wikipedia, 2.5 million registered democrats didn't vote Democrat and 2 million Republicans didn't vote Republican. Non voters probably don't factor in. I'd think that non voters would be less likely to support secession.

Re: California Secession Making Headway in Silicon Valley Community

#30

Post by mc32 »

relics443 wrote: post #20

Few questions: 1. Lots of talk about California and its economy. Is a possible reason it has such a strong economy because it's a part of the USA? Would it continue to have a strong economy as its own nation state? 2. How would they defend themselves military? Texas seems to have a lot more military inclined folk than California. What would they do without the support of the US Army? 3. If they put it to a vote, they…

I'll tell you what! Democrats, that's right Democrats in other states, in the US Capitol would not allow it.

There would go a balanced Democracy in the US for decades to come. There would be no California delegation to counter the 2/3 republicans in a new congress and they would lose their financial benefactors from the state. No way. This is all posturing, whining and petulance.

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