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Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#151

Post by heisenbit »

allendoerfer wrote: post #68
spiderfarmer wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a mix of having a lot of prisons, short sentences and low crime rates. A lot of people are advocating for more police and longer sentences, but I don't see why. If you look at the numbers, the system is working. The Police manpower is on par with the UK: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/... The amount of prisoners / 100.000 inhabitants is on par with Germany: http://ec.europa.eu/eurost…

> The amount of prisoners / 100.000 inhabitants is on par with Germany: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/... . Whose police and security forces are also underfunded. Apart from the usual "hey, new idea: let's increase pensions!" you need to do to win in an ageing country, this is the big topic in the upcoming election.

The security forces are always underfunded.

The crime level however is not so much increasing as it is always painted by interested lobbyists. For anyone looking for a deep dive: https://www.bka.de/SiteGlobals/Forms/Suche/Expertensuche_For... (Wikipedia link is broken).

Of course stats fluctuate and one always can find things that increase and that is reported. Context is usually left out. In 2015 it was increase of cars reported stolen (about half are recovered later). Here are the numbers:

2015: 35.941 (19.391)

2014: 34.653 (18.549)

2013: 35.696 (19.395)

2012: 34.176 (18.554)

2011: 35.564 (19.318)

Yes, there were more cars reported as stolen in 2015 than in 2013. But looking beyond the headlines there were even more recovered. Either funding of police increased, police became more effective or thieves more stupid.

Clearly there are areas where crime is on the rise. But then there are also areas where crime is falling. It is always easier to grow than making these adjustments. But in a not so fast growing society not all of these shifts are avoidable.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#152

Post by calgoo »

vivekd wrote: post #149
CreRecombinase wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that's true, then there are lots of genuinely bad people wandering the streets of the Netherlands. If that's true then either 1) they're doing terrible things all the time and the state just isn't doing anything about it (this doesn't seem to be the case), or 2) these "bad" people, bad as they may be, aren't causing much trouble by being amongst the general public.

There are dutch people in this comments section saying that laws are too lenient and that harsher prison sentences are needed. That should count for something. There was one commentor talking about how someone had assassinated a front-running political candidate and gotten off after a measly 12 years. That suggests to me that something is wrong.

12 years is normal in most northern European countries if I remember correctly, and I believe that its a good thing. We as a society need to take responsibility, and locking people up for their entire life is not a solution. There are people who might be too dangerous to have in general population, but i would argue that they have physiological issues which cant be trained away (think serial killers). But for most "normal" adults, locking them away for the rest of their life will not solve anything.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#153

Post by sqeaky »

ryanlol wrote: post #54
dep_b wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Neighbourhood watches using WhatsApp has nothing to do with a lack of police force, True, Germany has about the same amount of police force per capita. It's just spent better. > it's simply an "add-on" so neighbours can report suspicious behaviour to others. Why this worries me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin > None of this proves that The Netherlands is the a "dangerous" country It's also…

>Why this worries me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin What's worrying about that? The neighbourhood watchman was violently attacked and successfully defended himself. That particular incident seems to demonstrate that the neighbourhood watch existed for a reason.

That case is extremely cloudy. There is no way to know what actually happened.

But witnesses range from unreasonably in favor of the shooter: "Trayvon was reaching for a gun after be loud and beligerent and was shot in clear self defense", all the way to unreasonably in favor of the shot: "Trayvon was shot in cold blood and broad daylight by a bigot and a the shooter was let free because of institutional racism".

To claim you know what happened is extremely showing of your lack of understanding of the situation or of your implicit bias.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#154

Post by ordinary »

lisivka wrote: post #135
ordinary wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prison sentences in the Netherlands for aren't imposed as punishment alone, not even mostly. They are primarily tools of prevention (including the prevention of recidivism). If a convicted criminal is no longer considered to be a threat to society what's the point of keeping them locked up? If longer sentences (longer than whatever they are) have not shown to reduce the crime rate through deterrent, why impose them?…

If I have proposition to kill someone else for money, e.g. $10M, for exchange of 7 years in comfortable Dutch prison, I will grab the money.

Unlike in most other European countries, Dutch law allows for life imprisonment without parole, from which only a royal pardon can save you. Since 1970, 43 people have been convicted, 2 of whom were eventually pardoned, both because of terminal illness. A quick glance through the recent list of convictions[1] shows that most life sentences were imposed in cases of multiple homicide, homicide for financial gain and homicide related to organized crime.

In addition, convicts may be involuntarily committed when their sentence is over (and often before). This is aimed at rehabilitation, but can be extended indefinitely.

[1] https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijst_van_tot_levenslang_veroo... (in Dutch)

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#155

Post by lisivka »

eric_the_read wrote: post #144
lisivka wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I have proposition to kill someone else for money, e.g. $10M, for exchange of 7 years in comfortable Dutch prison, I will grab the money.

If the only reason you haven't murdered anyone is that you haven't been offered enough money, I'm genuinely concerned.

It's just example. People are killing people for way smaller reasons. My price is very high, isn't?

How much people live in Dutch? If Russians will send one killer for every key men in country, country will be their in just 12 years, while they lose nothing, because Dutch prison is much much more comfortable than a flat in Rostov. I see that in Ukraine right now.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#156

Post by lisivka »

ordinary wrote: post #154
lisivka wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I have proposition to kill someone else for money, e.g. $10M, for exchange of 7 years in comfortable Dutch prison, I will grab the money.

Unlike in most other European countries, Dutch law allows for life imprisonment without parole, from which only a royal pardon can save you. Since 1970, 43 people have been convicted, 2 of whom were eventually pardoned, both because of terminal illness. A quick glance through the recent list of convictions[1] shows that most life sentences were imposed in cases of multiple homicide, homicide for financial gain and ho…

OK, thank you. So I will not tell anybody that I did that by request of someone else, then serve 12 years and will be free and with money, unless my mother will come in: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram%C3%B3n_Mercader (in English).

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#157

Post by jandrese »

The article says right at the top that a significant chunk of the decline is the police turning an blind eye towards drug use and even trafficking.

I wonder how much their immigration policy has to do with it as well? If they were accepting hundreds of thousands of refugees from war torn countries their crime rate might not be so low.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#158

Post by continuational »

martijn_himself wrote: post #90
Broken_Hippo wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Norway, though not Norwegian. From what I can tell it already generates a lot of debate. The sentencing seems to generate debate when someone does any sort of heinous crime. At the same time, folks seem rather proud of the system itself. And I think folks should be. I'm American, the land of petty imprisonments and punishments lasting long after prison time is served. The system here seems to produce much b…

The least proud people will probably be the families of victims- and they matter the most. I agree there is a balance to be struck, the American system seems to be the other extreme.

I'm sure the families of the victims would vastly prefer not to be in this situation in the first place, over getting some petty revenge. That's why the priority must be to bring down the overall number of vitims.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#159

Post by wnevets »

ars wrote: post #146
wnevets wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It was the 163rd time he got arrested. are you suggesting he should be locked up for a very long time for committing a lot of petty crimes?

No, lock him up to prevent him committing more crimes. You might call them "petty" crimes as if they are nothing, but to the person involved they are a very big deal.

>No, lock him up to prevent him committing more crimes.

for how long, indefinitely?

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#160

Post by petra »

OliverJones wrote: post #53

This reduction in prison population is, at root, a consequence of ending drug prohibition. In the US, state voters are working on this in places like Colorado, Washington, and now my home state, Massachusetts. So far, voters have had to do it. Legislatures can't, yet, do it, because the vested special interests in continuing prohibition are too strong. I'm sure somebody can speak for California; I don't know much abo…

Heroin and Cocaine are safer than Alcohol ? Can you share some info please ?
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