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Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#131

Post by 67726e »

deadbunny wrote: post #94
jlebrech wrote: post #4

how about using such an institution to educate immigrants?

I'm sure being sent to a (disused) prison would be a wonderful welcome to a country. I mean I'm all for helping newcomers but sending them into a prison might send the wrong message ;)

Might not sound great on a newspaper headline, "refugees being housed in prison" similar to how I saw something about refugees in Germany being housed in some former concentration camp or SS barrack or something like that. Assuming it's a re-purposed, former prison that might not be a terrible idea. If you're fleeing possible death, imprisonment, war, etc. I don't see why it would be terrible to have some sort of "Refugee Integration Center". Spend a month there, get some cursory education on the customs and expectation in society, resources for assistance and such. This could create or preserve jobs and probably lead to better outcomes for incoming refugees coming from vastly different cultural backgrounds.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#132

Post by lisivka »

bahjoite wrote: post #104
martijn_himself wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The least proud people will probably be the families of victims- and they matter the most. I agree there is a balance to be struck, the American system seems to be the other extreme.

> The least proud people will probably be the families of victims- and they matter the most Why do the families of victims matter the most? Does not every person matter equally?

Did you hear about vendeta?

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#133

Post by thecynh »

humbleMouse wrote: post #130

Anecdotally, I have been in jail in the netherlands before, and it's honestly not that bad of a place to be. Delicious food, thick mattresses, private cells. Also, all the surfaces are painted pink/yellow/white because those colors have been shown to calm people who are locked up.

Mind sharing what for? I assume it is quite a different experience depending on what you are "in" for?

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#134

Post by lisivka »

lagadu wrote: post #114
charlesdm wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should a killer get released after 14 years though, after "good behavior"? If we're talking about premeditated murder, you can be pretty sure you're dealing with an individual who doesn't have good behavior. Second, 14 (or 21) years for murder, really? A life isn't worth a lot anymore these days..

> A life isn't worth a lot anymore these days.. Seems you're the one who isn't giving much value to the prisoner's life here. If rehabilitation can't be accomplished in 14 years, it won't be accomplished in 20 or 30 either so what's the point of keeping them inside an arbitrary number of years after that? edit: I just noticed you referred to imprisonment as punishment on another thread; that's where we differ in beli…

The point is that they cannot harm us while in prison.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#135

Post by lisivka »

ordinary wrote: post #59
charlesdm wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should a killer get released after 14 years though, after "good behavior"? If we're talking about premeditated murder, you can be pretty sure you're dealing with an individual who doesn't have good behavior. Second, 14 (or 21) years for murder, really? A life isn't worth a lot anymore these days..

Prison sentences in the Netherlands for aren't imposed as punishment alone, not even mostly. They are primarily tools of prevention (including the prevention of recidivism). If a convicted criminal is no longer considered to be a threat to society what's the point of keeping them locked up? If longer sentences (longer than whatever they are) have not shown to reduce the crime rate through deterrent, why impose them?…

If I have proposition to kill someone else for money, e.g. $10M, for exchange of 7 years in comfortable Dutch prison, I will grab the money.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#136

Post by pgeorgi »

charlesdm wrote: post #75
michaelt wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, going in at age 20 and coming out at age 34-41 seems like a pretty big chunk of your life gone?

It is, I'm not saying it's not. But the other person is dead and gone forever? Imagine if someone killed your wife/child/brother/mother/etc. Does that seem like a correct punishment? I'm not talking about accidents (e.g. a car crash), but premeditated murder? I personally think the length of that punishment is not in line with the crime. But hey, I'm getting downvoted to hell, so I guess most people think it is.

> Imagine if someone killed your wife/child/brother/mother/etc. Does that seem like a correct punishment?

Does that matter at all? I mean - no matter the punishment, the victim is dead, and nothing will bring them back.

So yes, lock them up: as minor deterrent (penal codes aren't very effective in that regard, if not even the death penalty prevents murder); to protect society; to give some standardized environment to hopefully correct the perpetrator so that they'll rediscover their humanity; and maybe for some sort of punishment (but that's really an afterthought, because as said, what does it matter?).

But (I hope) I'd refuse to let them also take my humanity (in addition to the life they took).

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#137

Post by lisivka »

lagadu wrote: post #116
charlesdm wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For most crimes, I definitely agree that imprisonment should be a tool to prevent further crime. In most cases, genuinely punishing someone for (stupid) mistakes (s)he has made is unproductive for society. But murder seems like a very specific situation (to me at least) where someone has crossed the line. Can one really come back from murder? Would you be comfortable spending time with someone you know who has cold-b…

> Can one really come back from murder? We pay people to go murder other people and are fine with it. We call them soldiers and sometimes policemen too. Turns out that most people who kill someone else are able to come back more often than not well enough to be able to live in society, although PTSD is a well-known consequence for it.

Soldiers are not paid for murder, they are shot for murder. Check army statute.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#138

Post by RankingMember »

vivekd wrote: post #123
Dylan16807 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think there is a correlation between being prone to addiction and being a genuinely bad person?

Well, there are a lot of people who try drugs, even very hard drugs, and can go on without getting hooked. But addicts tend to get hooked because of a desire to escape themselves. I can't put my finger on it exactly, or point to a scientific study unfortunately, but addicts that I have met have been very self-centered and unpleasant people.

Is there really such a thing as a "bad person"? Sure, there are people whose proclivities, inborn or otherwise, make them unsuitable to be freely among the public, but I can't think of anyone who I couldn't imagine following a different, "positive" path.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#139

Post by chongli »

vivekd wrote: post #118
awjr wrote: post #22

The counter argument as to why there seem to be a lack of prisoners is under-resourcing the police. However the whole judicial system within the Netherlands appears to take a holistic approach to people, trying to help people get their lives back on track. Yes some people do need locking up, but there seems to be a recognition that locking up an addict for theft doesn't solve the long-term issue. Teaching them to man…

I used to think this way before I started practicing Criminal law. But after interacting with criminals, I'm starting to realize that these are not just otherwise innocent and good people who fell onto hard times or had trouble with an addiction. There are genuinely bad people out there, who just want to get what they want and are perfectly willing to hurt others to get it. It seems to me that, absent a desire to cha…

How many of these genuinely bad people were born that way? How many were victims of crime themselves growing up? I'd hazard a guess that a large percentage of so-called "hardened criminals" developed their cynicism due to the climate of our atomized, uncaring society.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#140

Post by gpvos »

kriro wrote: post #79
ordinary wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prison sentences in the Netherlands for aren't imposed as punishment alone, not even mostly. They are primarily tools of prevention (including the prevention of recidivism). If a convicted criminal is no longer considered to be a threat to society what's the point of keeping them locked up? If longer sentences (longer than whatever they are) have not shown to reduce the crime rate through deterrent, why impose them?…

I feel like murder (or most major crimes really) is a very special case. I'd prefer a system where the default is a life sentence (a lifetime for a life feels just) but the option to release after n years if relatives/family of the victim agree to it. It's probably very impractical but would appeal most to my personal understanding of justice.

One of the reasons we have a justice system instead of revenge and vendettas is that we hope to have progressed a bit past "a life for a life". That is also why we don't let the victims have influence over their release.

As far as I'm concerned, there is indeed a punishment/revenge factor also in our current justice system, besides rehabilitation and keeping the streets safe from wrongdoers. That could lead to minimum sentences, especially for murder and even more so when it's premeditated. In general, I find that judges (in the Netherlands) strike an okay balance.

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