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Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#71

Post by micfar »

zyx321 wrote: post #61
waterflame wrote: post #21

Apparently the Dutch are not as smart as the Americans. It's simple: 1- Legalize Guns so people can shoot each other over anything 2- Privatize Prisons so that greedy CEOs can take over the "business" 3- Create laws that can criminalize you for any stupid thing you do, procedures that make everyone frustrated, and an economy that keeps you bankrupt most of the time

All those measures will take a long time to take effect. You can't expect culture to change over night. Luckily if you want results NOW, all you gotta do is outlaw marijuana. Nothing fills prisons like a War on Drugs.

Cannabis is technically a white-listed illegal substance, for which the possession, consumption, and sale is legal up to certain thresholds. Amusingly, the sellers require a license and are not supposed to purchase stock to sell. Viz. The cannabis being sold is appearing out of thin air!

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#73

Post by diskooo »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #36
diskooo wrote: post #20

Yeah, no wonder - you rape somebody here and you have to clean the streets for a week. If you're unlucky that is. Police officers are too busy with mobile speed controls. They don't (dare) arrest anybody who's foul-mouthing them in their face. They have become laughing stock. Crime sentences (duration) are deplorable. Solved crime rates are way too low.

Do you have any solved crime rate statistics, when compared to other countries? The Police manpower is on par with the UK. And the amount of prisoners / 100.000 inhabitants is on par with Germany. See sources in my other comment.

https://translate.google.nl/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&pre...

A little dated, but it surely shows a trend which has only gotten worse over the past years.

It has a comparison between The Netherlands and Germany.

Another source: https://translate.google.nl/translate?hl=nl&sl=nl&tl=en&u=ht...

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#74

Post by pmyjavec »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #34
awjr wrote: post #22

The counter argument as to why there seem to be a lack of prisoners is under-resourcing the police. However the whole judicial system within the Netherlands appears to take a holistic approach to people, trying to help people get their lives back on track. Yes some people do need locking up, but there seems to be a recognition that locking up an addict for theft doesn't solve the long-term issue. Teaching them to man…

It's a mix of having a lot of prisons, short sentences and low crime rates. A lot of people are advocating for more police and longer sentences, but I don't see why. If you look at the numbers, the system is working. The Police manpower is on par with the UK: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/... The amount of prisoners / 100.000 inhabitants is on par with Germany: http://ec.europa.eu/eurost…

Also, the Dutch are very lenient on drug (recreational) users and the sale of drugs.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#75

Post by charlesdm »

michaelt wrote: post #64
charlesdm wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should a killer get released after 14 years though, after "good behavior"? If we're talking about premeditated murder, you can be pretty sure you're dealing with an individual who doesn't have good behavior. Second, 14 (or 21) years for murder, really? A life isn't worth a lot anymore these days..

To me, going in at age 20 and coming out at age 34-41 seems like a pretty big chunk of your life gone?

It is, I'm not saying it's not. But the other person is dead and gone forever? Imagine if someone killed your wife/child/brother/mother/etc. Does that seem like a correct punishment?

I'm not talking about accidents (e.g. a car crash), but premeditated murder? I personally think the length of that punishment is not in line with the crime. But hey, I'm getting downvoted to hell, so I guess most people think it is.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#76

Post by usethis »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #37
martijn_himself wrote: post #19

Dutch national here. I'm pretty sure this is largely due to lenient prison sentences, no prison sentences at all for minor offences, and unsolved crimes. The cold-blooded convicted killer of the frontrunner in the Dutch elections in 2002 was released after 12 years, something which is unthinkable in other countries.

The main thing is that there's a difference in perspective. In e.g. the US legal system, prison time is punishment, a form of vengeance, of paying your debt to society. (and nowadays, a means to get a large slave labor force). In NL and Finland and the like, prison is more like forced rehabilitation - it recognises that committing crimes have a reason, and by solving the reason you solve the criminal behaviour.

The yearly cost of a US prisoner is $47,000 [1]. I am sure this is a whole lot more than society is willing to invest in the person outside of prison.

http://www.lao.ca.gov/PolicyAreas/CJ/6_cj_inmatecost

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#77

Post by Broken_Hippo »

martijn_himself wrote: post #40
CRidge wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't sound unthinkable in other countries. I'm from Norway, where the maximum prison sentence is 21 years, with a third of that often being deducted for good behavior, leaving 14 years.

Agreed! That will probably generate a lot of debate when Breivik comes up for release.

I live in Norway, though not Norwegian. From what I can tell it already generates a lot of debate. The sentencing seems to generate debate when someone does any sort of heinous crime. At the same time, folks seem rather proud of the system itself.

And I think folks should be. I'm American, the land of petty imprisonments and punishments lasting long after prison time is served. The system here seems to produce much better outcomes for both the people imprisoned and the community around them.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#79

Post by kriro »

ordinary wrote: post #59
charlesdm wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should a killer get released after 14 years though, after "good behavior"? If we're talking about premeditated murder, you can be pretty sure you're dealing with an individual who doesn't have good behavior. Second, 14 (or 21) years for murder, really? A life isn't worth a lot anymore these days..

Prison sentences in the Netherlands for aren't imposed as punishment alone, not even mostly. They are primarily tools of prevention (including the prevention of recidivism). If a convicted criminal is no longer considered to be a threat to society what's the point of keeping them locked up? If longer sentences (longer than whatever they are) have not shown to reduce the crime rate through deterrent, why impose them?…

I feel like murder (or most major crimes really) is a very special case. I'd prefer a system where the default is a life sentence (a lifetime for a life feels just) but the option to release after n years if relatives/family of the victim agree to it. It's probably very impractical but would appeal most to my personal understanding of justice.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#80

Post by Broken_Hippo »

diskooo wrote: post #20

Yeah, no wonder - you rape somebody here and you have to clean the streets for a week. If you're unlucky that is. Police officers are too busy with mobile speed controls. They don't (dare) arrest anybody who's foul-mouthing them in their face. They have become laughing stock. Crime sentences (duration) are deplorable. Solved crime rates are way too low.

People expect retail workers to be nice to folk during and after they are "foul-mouthing them in their face." If we expect this from the folks near the bottom of the chain, why should we not expect this from the police?

Being an ill-tempered individual doesn't make one a criminal. Nor should it.

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