Live data from Hacker News

The smug style in American liberalism

vox.com

341–350 of 435 posts

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#341
post #340
post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The British people considered it unreasonably large, for whatever reasons. They considered it important enough that after years of being ignored millions voted for UKIP or the Tories. Again I'm not here to argue merits. What you have there is more justifications for ignoring the views of large sections of the electorate. The rest of your argument is purely economic, as if that is or should be everything to everyone.…

>The British people considered it unreasonably large, for whatever reasons. For no good reason. That's why I said that it's mad. The economic argument is the only respectable argument against immigration, which is why I focused on it. The only other arguments against immigration that people put forward are racist and/or xenophobic.

More of the smug I'm afraid.

You don't think it's important so it's mad.

You don't agree with other arguments so they're racist.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#342
post #341
post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The British people considered it unreasonably large, for whatever reasons. For no good reason. That's why I said that it's mad. The economic argument is the only respectable argument against immigration, which is why I focused on it. The only other arguments against immigration that people put forward are racist and/or xenophobic.

More of the smug I'm afraid. You don't think it's important so it's mad. You don't agree with other arguments so they're racist.

Ok, so what is an argument against current levels of immigration to the UK that is neither racist, xenophobic, nor based primarily on economic considerations?

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#343
post #342
post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More of the smug I'm afraid. You don't think it's important so it's mad. You don't agree with other arguments so they're racist.

Ok, so what is an argument against current levels of immigration to the UK that is neither racist, xenophobic, nor based primarily on economic considerations?

Most EU immigration is to London and the South East, somewhere that already feels like it's creaking at the seems and overcrowded.

We could start a massive programme of building houses and infrastructure, but that would further change the face of the country. Limiting immigration would alleviate some of the pressure.

That's just one off the top of my head.

Remember, the point made in this article is not that you have to agree. The point is that calling people mad and shouting them down as racist is toxic to politics and drives people away.

--edit--

I also find it strange when people bring up racism in the context of limiting migration from the EU - a region primarily peopled by white Europeans.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know some Trump supporters who are neither racist nor homophobic nor misogynistic. I also know Hillary voters who will drop the "N" word talking about blacks. You can't really divine who a person is by who they vote for.

> You can't really divine who a person is by who they vote for. Can you elaborate a bit on this? Obviously you can't get to know EVERYTHING a person is just from what they vote for every 4 years but I always felt like you can't vote for Trump and not at least be OK with his sexism, misogyny and yes, racism. What am I missing (not being snarky here, not even from the US)

...and you can't vote for Hillary without being OK with obstructing democracy, corporate bailouts, and welfare handouts. At least that's how a lot of people felt who didn't want to vote for Hillary. (I preferred her to Trump, personally.)

People have different priorities. It can be really hard to care about various isms when your life has been borderline misery for a half decade or more.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This says more about you than about the American public in general. My brother and his wife, and many of the people with whom I work, are not "disgusting misogynistic racist pigs". Actually I know many more Trump voters than disgusting racist pigs. The media really couldn't help it, however. Every president from here on out will be a reality show star. Look for Chris Christie to get a show as soon as he gets booted o…

> My brother and his wife, and many of the people with whom I work, are not "disgusting misogynistic racist pigs". I am sure they aren't (well actually I don't know, and as you rightly convey, I obviously CAN'T know just from their pro-Trump vote) but would you agree that people that voted for Trump have to be at least OK with being represented by one "disgusting misogynistic racist pig(s)" without themselves being o…

Are you suggesting that there were no reasons to dislike Hillary? Or that misogyny and racism live on a plane above all other issues? Because in the end, the people only had two choices in this election.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This says more about you than about the American public in general. My brother and his wife, and many of the people with whom I work, are not "disgusting misogynistic racist pigs". Actually I know many more Trump voters than disgusting racist pigs. The media really couldn't help it, however. Every president from here on out will be a reality show star. Look for Chris Christie to get a show as soon as he gets booted o…

> My brother and his wife, and many of the people with whom I work, are not "disgusting misogynistic racist pigs". I am sure they aren't (well actually I don't know, and as you rightly convey, I obviously CAN'T know just from their pro-Trump vote) but would you agree that people that voted for Trump have to be at least OK with being represented by one "disgusting misogynistic racist pig(s)" without themselves being o…

That's the trouble in a two party (Winner-takes-all AKA first-past-the-post) system is that you can never tell who genuinely approves of Trump, and who merely disapproves of Clinton.

Would you be OK with being represented by a crook, without yourself being one?

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#347
post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> do you really think you can objectively evaluate the truth of these claims without bias? Yes, more or less, just as many kinds of professionals are required to do the same. But regardless, my entire point is that the truth of these claims is the least important thing about them, just as the interesting question about a wager between two college students of whether a vagrant would shit his pants or not when they set…

But regardless, my entire point is that the truth of these claims is the least important thing about them... That much is clear, and the source of our differences. I do care about reality and I don't mind if bad people have learned true facts. Yes, the motivation is to justify and perpetuate a distribution of power that's favorable to the groups where those ideas are found. And the motivation for studying evolution i…

> That much is clear, and the source of our differences. I do care about reality and I don't mind if bad people have learned true facts.

That cannot possibly be our difference because I also care about reality and I don't mind if bad people have learned true facts. I have no reason to believe that I care about reality any less than you do. There are only two differences between our views : 1. I do not think there is currently any evidence whatsoever that innate differences between human races are a significant causal factor in the observed power difference, and 2. I think that in the whole of science there are few questions that are less interesting. In fact, while I have occasionally found myself pondering scientific questions that can be said to be utterly ridiculous and pointless, the thought of whether blacks are less intelligent than whites has never even crossed my mind. When a question does cross my mind, I always -- always -- ask myself why is it important to me that I should spend time pondering it, let alone writing about it. I think that in all of science, pretty much the only time uninteresting questions (i.e., those not given explicit justification for study by scientists) become interesting is when there is incontrovertible evidence for something totally surprising (even if uninteresting). I don't think that this is the case with scientific racism, either.

I wonder why it is that this question is so important to you, that you'd rather spend your time writing about it, than say, how cats purr or why we yawn.

> You are discussing specifically whether I am a "scientific racist" and "white supremacist". And you've defined these terms as people having specific motivations which I don't share.

I'm afraid I don't think it is possible to believe whites are innately more intelligent than blacks and not be a white supremacist (at least not without some clearly spelled out motivation), or to believe that differences in traits such as intelligence between races are either supported by science or should be studied by science without being a scientific racist, sorry. I sort-of understand your desire to both have a billion dollars and yet not be considered a billionaire, but I'm just not sure how this can be done.

You may claims that scientific racism is an interesting and valid scientific discipline or that your motivations are pure etc., but you cannot argue that you are not a scientific racist if those are your views.

Also, I did not define scientific racism as having specific motivations. I restated the well accepted -- and, AFAIK, the only definition of scientific racism, as the belief that some races are innately superior or inferior to others (usually in qualities that coincide with social power) and that this can and/or should be proven with science. I added, in response to your question, that it has been well established (although that is not the definition) that scientific racism is an all-too-familiar tool being used in the same ways, making the same assertions, time and again by people with similar motivations. Your personal motivations are your own business, but I wonder if you've asked yourself why you are personally so drawn to such questions, especially as most people (even those who care a lot about reality) aren't.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#348
post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>here are actually themes in the Bible that talk about a "worker deserving his wage", and "if a man doesn't work he doesn't eat". wow some fantastic turns of logic you are using. Christian means Christ-like. did Christ preach social darwinism, or did he spend his time with prostitutes and lepers? Did Christ preach having the poor fend for themselves, or did he feed the hungry? Did Christ praise the wealthy, or does h…

Those were actual quotes from the bible. I'm not sure how that's a u turn in logic?

Well, the entire first half of the Bible is before the birth of Christ, and when Christ arrived the religion began whats called the New Covenant with God, replacing the old covenant which bound followers to the old laws of the old testament.

something being "in the bible" is meaningless without its context. Theres quite a breadth on the capturing, keeping and treatment of slaves - would you argue that these verses are the same as Christs teachings?

>As for the male and female slaves whom you may have, it is from the nations around you that you may acquire male and female slaves.

> You may also acquire them from among the aliens residing with you, and from their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property.

>You may keep them as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as property.

But hey, if you think being a Christian means following any phrase you happen to pick out of the Bible, go for it.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#349
post #343
post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so what is an argument against current levels of immigration to the UK that is neither racist, xenophobic, nor based primarily on economic considerations?

Most EU immigration is to London and the South East, somewhere that already feels like it's creaking at the seems and overcrowded. We could start a massive programme of building houses and infrastructure, but that would further change the face of the country. Limiting immigration would alleviate some of the pressure. That's just one off the top of my head. Remember, the point made in this article is not that you have…

>Most EU immigration is to London and the South East, somewhere that already feels like it's creaking at the seems and overcrowded.

> Limiting immigration would alleviate some of the pressure.

First of all, housing is an economic issue.

Second, London voted overwhelmingly for remain. I live in London. No-one here seriously thinks that London’s housing crisis can be solved by stopping immigration. Nor did the country vote Leave because people in the North were particularly interested in solving London’s housing crisis.

Third, London out of all areas of the UK would be harmed the most by greater restrictions on immigration, and the vast majority of the people who live here know that.

>I also find it strange when people bring up racism in the context of limiting migration from the EU - a region primarily peopled by white Europeans.

Actually I was careful to say “racist and/or xenophobic” in anticipation of this kind of pedantry, but I guess I needn’t have bothered. The current climate is such that even Polish people aren’t considered sufficiently Anglo-Saxon to be entitled to live here!

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My brother and his wife, and many of the people with whom I work, are not "disgusting misogynistic racist pigs". I am sure they aren't (well actually I don't know, and as you rightly convey, I obviously CAN'T know just from their pro-Trump vote) but would you agree that people that voted for Trump have to be at least OK with being represented by one "disgusting misogynistic racist pig(s)" without themselves being o…

Are you suggesting that there were no reasons to dislike Hillary? Or that misogyny and racism live on a plane above all other issues? Because in the end, the people only had two choices in this election.

No, sorry I did not want to suggest either of those things. There are reasons to dislike Hillary I am sure, and voting for her would in my opinion imply "being OK" with these reasons. I was really just looking for input, not making a point.
Post reply on HN