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A Method I’ve Used to Eliminate Bad Tech Hires

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Re: A Method I’ve Used to Eliminate Bad Tech Hires

#291

Post by walshemj »

metaphor wrote: post #88
ahh wrote: post #10

This system is interesting but has a crucial flaw: I legally can't take part. I have a job now, which claims ownership over any tech-related IP I create. There are processes for getting exceptions, but a) you won't get them for actual job-related things b) I'm not asking Google for an exception so I can interview somewhere else. This is true for nearly anyone with a standard SV job. So if you're willing to restrict y…

>> I have a job now, which claims ownership over any tech-related IP I create. Is there an omitted qualifier to this, e.g. ...while on company time; for IP with sufficient correlation to your primary role? I'm having a difficult time swallowing the legal enforceability of "all-day-everyday-any-tech-related-IP" outside of military personnel subject to the UCMJ. Would that suggest that you technically couldn't contribu…

Yes but can you afford the legal representation to prove it is not related.

Re: A Method I’ve Used to Eliminate Bad Tech Hires

#292

Post by mobiuscog »

blowski wrote: post #240
stillworks wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't care about getting paid. I don't care if I am doing it at home or in the interviewer's premises. Don't let me connect to internet. I'll also leave my phone with you just to make sure I don't have access to the internet. I don't mind taking the time away from current employment to go through the process. BUT PLEASE LEAVE ME ALONE THOUGH WHILE I AM AT IT. FOR GOD'S SAKE DON"T SIT NEXT TO ME AND TALK TO ME OR EX…

Sounds like I'm completely the opposite of you! I'm fine with someone sitting next to me - I love pair programming. But cutting off internet access means no StackOverflow, no online documentation. The test should be very similar to normal working conditions.

Why would you need Stack Overflow ? Seriously, is the ability to copy/query from Stack Overflow expected from 'programmers' these days ?!

Re: A Method I’ve Used to Eliminate Bad Tech Hires

#293

Post by codeulike »

deepaksurti wrote: post #290
codeulike wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the method proposed is only 20% about code. It's mostly about seeing how someone approaches a piece of work and discusses a solution in a meeting. You can't get that from browsing GitHub.

Agreed. The Github code is a substitute for the take home assignment. If his GH code is good enough as per the employer standards, invite him in office to explain the work he did on that project. Now employers don't want to do that most likely I assume is because no one wants to go through the pain of figuring out the details of GH code. OTOH, the employer is expecting the candidate to understand the problem assigned…

I don't think you understand how getting a job works. It's entirely appropriate for the amount of effort expended by two parties to be asymmetrical.

Re: A Method I’ve Used to Eliminate Bad Tech Hires

#294

Post by edpichler »

Digest: pay for a task before deciding to contract.

On the article, Amir wrote: "They refuse to do the project because “someone will hire me without it”.

On book "Smart and Gets Things Done: Joel Spolsky's Concise Guide to Finding the Best Technical Talent" Joel said that the "the best developers usually have lots of proposals, so they don't spend time doing tests for interviews".

I think Joel and Amir are right.

Re: A Method I’ve Used to Eliminate Bad Tech Hires

#295

Post by coldnebo »

mobiuscog wrote: post #292
blowski wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like I'm completely the opposite of you! I'm fine with someone sitting next to me - I love pair programming. But cutting off internet access means no StackOverflow, no online documentation. The test should be very similar to normal working conditions.

Why would you need Stack Overflow ? Seriously, is the ability to copy/query from Stack Overflow expected from 'programmers' these days ?!

That's a bit rough. I think you are missing the other value proposition for SO: in a world of poorly documented interfaces, it gives cogent, vetted examples of what works. And you still need to have expertise to know which solutions are crap vs gold.

In the 'old days' you had maybe one or two languages and the language was the thing (not vast libraries like Java or .NET .. oh excuse me, the guys who used to get teased for the size of the CMS VAX reference are barely a man page in comparison to modern libraries) -- and now we have a proliferation of languages. Any web dev these days has to know at least 5, maybe more. Any old-timer has had to learn dozens during their career.

So no, I'm not going to use my precious grey-storage to remember an arcane Perl invocation when I can find it easily on SO.

Perhaps I don't meet your definition of 'programmer', but I've seen many junior devs get trapped in SO 'solutions' and wonder how I can possibly glance through 30 solutions and categorize them: "crap, crap, doesn't know what they are talking about, cargo cult, ... ah, there it is.. that's what we should try."

Benefit of experience?

Re: A Method I’ve Used to Eliminate Bad Tech Hires

#296

Post by jefozabuss »

mobiuscog wrote: post #292
blowski wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like I'm completely the opposite of you! I'm fine with someone sitting next to me - I love pair programming. But cutting off internet access means no StackOverflow, no online documentation. The test should be very similar to normal working conditions.

Why would you need Stack Overflow ? Seriously, is the ability to copy/query from Stack Overflow expected from 'programmers' these days ?!

The OP's point was without internet access you can't find solutions made by others for problems you might not frequently run into in your daily job.

Example: you have a failing install of a package in a linux version you never used before where the solution would be to increase ulimit but you are applying for a frontend position so you don't even know what ulimit is, but by a quick search on google for the error message there is an article providing a 1 liner for this issue.

Re: A Method I’ve Used to Eliminate Bad Tech Hires

#297

Post by coldnebo »

stillworks wrote: post #273
TeMPOraL wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed interesting how different people are. Here, I'm like you. But it carries over to normal job - I work best when left alone. Especially when I have a tough problem to solve, just having people sitting close to me makes me frustrated, and if they're talking, then I won't be able to concentrate at all. It takes a lot of energy for me to be able to work in the presence of other people.

I understand where you are coming from... I think somehow the world was agreeable enough to drink the Pair-Programming KoolAid. The consulting companies or body shops were happy since they could bill 2x the number of heads for the same amount of time. The "buy-side" of Pair Programming were happy because the KoolAid evidently worked. Don't get me wrong, I am all in favor of getting my code eye-balled by anybody becau…

It's also interesting that the pair vs TDD divide is often based on the solution space.

Service/backend programmers often extol TDD because it is easy when working in a single language where your only IO is strings (i.e. Undergrad CS)

Front-end programmers may use TDD in certain established contexts, but pair may be more important when there are numerous integrations across unsupported toolchains. For example, when was the last time you used TDD with CSS? Oh? Too hard to verify that the CSS for a page makes it so that you can't click a button or print a page? Oh? Market bug isn't your responsibility?

Yeah, I see a lot of defensiveness when TDD is impossibly hard, so it's not "all that". But, use it if it makes sense. Know your tools and use the right tool for the job.

Re: A Method I’ve Used to Eliminate Bad Tech Hires

#298

Post by [deleted] »

stillworks wrote: post #273
TeMPOraL wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed interesting how different people are. Here, I'm like you. But it carries over to normal job - I work best when left alone. Especially when I have a tough problem to solve, just having people sitting close to me makes me frustrated, and if they're talking, then I won't be able to concentrate at all. It takes a lot of energy for me to be able to work in the presence of other people.

I understand where you are coming from... I think somehow the world was agreeable enough to drink the Pair-Programming KoolAid. The consulting companies or body shops were happy since they could bill 2x the number of heads for the same amount of time. The "buy-side" of Pair Programming were happy because the KoolAid evidently worked. Don't get me wrong, I am all in favor of getting my code eye-balled by anybody becau…

[deleted]

Re: A Method I’ve Used to Eliminate Bad Tech Hires

#299

Post by deepGem »

maccard wrote: post #260
deepGem wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One view of this behaviour is cheating, another view is hustle. I mean, if you could arrange a hackathon to solve an interview question - you are hired my friend :)

Do you expect this guy to organise a hackathon to solve every problem you give him? And what if that havkathon now involves the people at your company working on his problems as well as their own?

Of course I don't expect him to organise a hackathon. If that's his way of solving the problem, I'll actually appreciate his effort. Shows great leadership skills. In fact, most of your success in a company comes from your ability to muster a team. Individual skills only go so far.

Re: A Method I’ve Used to Eliminate Bad Tech Hires

#300

Post by nommm-nommm »

walshemj wrote: post #287
TeMPOraL wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As someone who is already employed full-time, I simply don't have the time to solve your problems for free just to see if you'd like to invite me over for an interview. That means you don't care enough about changing jobs. There are people who will happily do that "interview" for free even when being employed full-time. The only relevant question for the company is whether there are enough qualified candidates will…

So your filtering for the "desperate" job seekers

Job seekers who don't have their weekends full.
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